Homeschooling: good idea

Dutch education does not exactly meet the requirements that many parents place on good education. That is also the reason that alternative forms of education such as the Waldorf School are so popular. But there is also a lot to be said for homeschooling ...

The democratic content of the Netherlands is, as is well known, lacking a few things.

Homeschooling is increasingly popular with parents who have had it with poor education.

For example, the Netherlands (with Germany) is almost the only European country homeschooling. Homeschooling came into the limelight in March 2010 because Muslim parents want to educate their daughters at home and the CDA minister Ank Bijleveld wants to put a stop to this. En passant the minister thus also gets rid of the intolerable self-secrets for civil servants and politicians who teach their children at home and think they know better than the hundreds of thousands of civil servants.

As is often the case, the problematic behavior of a number of Muslims is being abused by politicians to restrict civil rights and civil liberties. A more effective solution would have been here: making a math and language test compulsory for homeschooling parents and regularly checking the progress of children (the CITO system).

What is homeschooling?
Homeschooling is education where the parents educate their children themselves. In certain cases - parents who travel the world with their children - this is a dire necessity. About two hundred to two thousand children are currently being homeschooled. In the United States, up to five percent of schoolchildren are homeschooled. The public schools in particular are also very poor there, which contributes greatly to the popularity of homeschooling in the US.

Homeschooling and Compulsory Education Act
The Compulsory education law obliges parents to send their children to a school. Still, there are some exceptions to the law. These are:

  • you lead a traveling life (Article 5a)
  • there is no school with your philosophy of life (Article 5b)
  • your child is physically / mentally incapable of attending a school (Article 5c)

Given the absurd protection that religion (philosophy of life, this is in practice) in the Netherlands, article 5b is the most promising for parents to be able to invoke an exemption from the Compulsory Education Act. Note: there are some limitations: for example, parents must not have sent their child to an existing school in the previous year and a request must be submitted to the mayor and aldermen of a municipality (and granted). Spending a year abroad with the children is therefore highly recommended.

The benefits of homeschooling
Parents know their child much better than a teacher. If a child does not do the homework with excuses, the educator will soon find out. Especially children who are very different from the average - very intelligent or sensitive children, for example - are better off at home than in a class with annoying children. The personal attention to a child makes children flourish. Universities such as Harvard are therefore very pleased with the results of home education.

And the cons ...
Home education makes some practical demands on the knowledge and skills of parents. They must speak good Dutch and have a reasonably good general development. They should also be able to spend a lot of time with their children, checking that their children have done their homework and preparing for lessons. In general, therefore, especially higher educated or self-taught parents will be eligible.

Sources
Dutch Homeschooling Association

183 thoughts on “Thuisonderwijs: goed idee”

  1. In principle, prohibiting something is never good if there are no clear arguments for it. I also find the government's attitude somewhat hypocritical: "we don't allow homeschooling unless you can't attend school."
    I then wonder: if a child can stay at home in an emergency (for example illness) and possibly receive education there, then shouldn't that also be possible when a child is not sick? Why should you only allow staying at home if there is no other way, and not just if the parents or the child find it easier?

    Let people decide for themselves. At the most, the government should guarantee quality, not lay out everything literally for people.

  2. Yes idd, unless parents themselves are teachers who can teach in all subject areas in which children can receive education, only home schooling is also not a good idea. My child loves to learn and every free hour in which our child indicates that he wants to read or learn while playing, we are busy with him. We do not push him, it should not be the case that he hates primary school and only wants to learn at home to be able to walk the edges of it. He has stacks of textbooks and they have all become too boring for him, he is a member of the library, we recently borrowed a book for him, my wife read it 3 times and the fourth time he started to read to us. We were amazed, he can't read at all, he literally told us page by page every sentence on the page in such a convincing way that it seemed as if he were reading to us. In any case, we, my wife and I, are convinced that it does not hurt to prepare a child in the basics, every alphabite in the Netherlands would be able to prepare his or her child well and to maximize the child's potential. promote. After the 5th year it is by far over and 2/3 of the superfluous synapses in the brain of a child break down again, then he has to do it himself and it only depends on the will of the child to what extent the child is able to push himself to the maximum.

    1. Homeschooling cannot be compared to teaching a whole class. A teacher must be able to 'serve' about 25 (very different) children at the same time and then also in fixed class hours, tightly organized. In homeschooling, you only have a few children under your care, who you know well and who you can fully connect with your own learning style and interests.
      As a result, you have much more peace of mind and you really do not have to master all subjects at the level of a teacher in order to guide your child with them. You can explore a lot of knowledge together with your child: internet, books, magazines, museums, etc. provide many opportunities to explore all kinds of subjects.
      That this works well is shown by many studies (see for example left on http://www.thuisonderwijs.nl) and experiences of homeschooling families.

      1. Els,

        You are the only one who has put in a meaningful link here, I have a few caveats. I have not studied the links yet, I will do that tomorrow. The link of Thuisonderwijs.nl is a link that ends up on a piece of text created by the Dutch association for homeschooling, so it is very logical that they add a lot of propaganda to make their views clear, but there is nothing to do. see from the text which also shows that what they say is also true. Immediately the first link I see is about a Flemish who has some important things to say, I have my reservations about this anyway, before I say anything more about this, I will also take a closer look at this tomorrow.

        1. If you can find studies showing that school works better than homeschooling, let me know. I know a lot of Dutch (and also some foreign) home teachers, but they have not been able to find it (as far as I know) ...

          Also, don't think that home educators are only looking for positive material. In general, the choice for home education is preceded by a thorough assessment. Homeschooling parents are people who are willing to do the best for their child, and they are generally also well versed in the consequences of their choices.

        2. @Barry,

          Hi, I am the secretary of the home education association and therefore also go over the website. As a club, we advocate that families should be given a free choice to choose either home education, school education, or a mix (flexi-schooling). Giving free choice means creating an honest image. We believe that self-selection and thorough orientation contribute to the quality of home education. If you find that http://www.thuisonderwijs.nl now that it is more propagandistic than informative, I would like to hear where that emerges. That is not our intention.

        3. Peter van Zuidam,

          I think it is more propagandistic at the moment because, as I said before, I have not seen anything in your first texts that also shows that what you say is really true. The commentators who have intervened in this discussion so far have only expressed opinions based on other people's opinions without a clear vision of their own. Opinions that I immediately found on your site. I have only seen opinions in that text and that makes it propagandistic. I also said that tomorrow I will study the rest of the links a bit more closely, if I made a mistake I will freely admit that, if I have any objections I will certainly indicate them. I must honestly say that I am now getting tired and am not sure if I will be able to make a fair judgment.

          Thank you Peter van Zuidam and see you tomorrow. :)

        4. Always Freedom

          Barry, as a commentator in the discussion; the opinions that I have expressed are to my mind reasonably original mine and certainly based on a very personal vision, but who is not 'on the shoulders of giants' who have preceded him in thinking or doing?

        5. Barry,
          Home educators speak from their own experience and from the experiences of others in their home education network. That is different from an opinion.

          I do not get the impression that you yourself have experience with home education, yet you make fairly far-reaching (and unsubstantiated) statements about it. Before accusing others of not being able to perform an important task properly, I think it would be a good idea to first find out whether what you think is correct.

          And actually I don't see why I should necessarily substantiate my own experiences. If I have to answer to anyone for the quality of (my) home education, it is my son and not a complete stranger on a forum.
          Sharing my experiences here is informative, as I find there is a lot of ignorance and prejudice about homeschooling. If what I am writing can help people learn a little more about homeschooling, become aware that it is incomparable to school education, and realize that the ideas they have about it may be more prejudices than truths, then I am already very satisfied.

        6. Peter van Zuidam,

          Immediately on your site you will be offered a link in which you can read a letter in which it is stated that Muslims in the Netherlands should receive home education because their Islamic Amsterdam college is being closed. This is completely nonsense, it means that people should learn at home based on their faith if they feel like it. Just explain to me properly why believers take precedence over atheists or agnostics. This first link is therefore purely political propaganda to begin with, this cannot be denied.

          Quote:
          Freedom of belief and education is of great importance in our society, which is why this concerns fundamental and human rights.

          Yes idd that is also the case in our society, which is why you only come up with foreign investigations that do not relate to the Netherlands. This is putting sand in the eyes of the people reading this discussion.

          Quote:
          School is not the only means of participation in society. Foreign research has shown that the social and emotional development of children who receive homeschooling does not differ negatively from children who go to school. They develop just as well and perhaps even better than school children and appear to participate well in society.

          The above qoute underlines my opinion in this, you provided a link
          http://www.thuisonderwijs.net/artikelen/volwassenen-onderzoek-nheri.html Okay, this again revolves around American research with a very weak final conclusion. I will explain this.

          point 1 in that article is misplaced, precisely because it is already mentioned that 49% of the respondents were still studying, so it was completely unnecessary to mention this point in the final conclusion.
          Point 2 71% participated in community activity versus 37% of the Americans who don't. Logically, the rich in America are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, the other 37% just can't afford it because they are minority groups. Furthermore, school-age young people also participate in numerous community activities.
          point 3 Only 4.2% of the home-schooled adults considered politics and government too complicated to understand compared to 35% of the American adults. yes this is also very logical, if you get little education in politics it is not difficult, the more education you get in political matters the more difficult it becomes, it is not without reason that it is such a political mess in America.
          Now the next point:
          76% of the home-schooled adults 18 to 24 years old had exercised their right to vote in the past five years, compared with only 29% of the US population of similar age. Can you see that it is just American political propaganda? The fact that they quote this point in the final conclusion actually says enough.
          Then as a last point before I comment on the final conclusion:
          - 95% of the home-taught adult respondents were happy to be home-taught. In their opinion, homeschooling has not hindered their careers or education. 82% would later like to homeschool its own children. Of the 812 participants, who had children aged 5 years or older, 74% indicated that they were self-taught. To process this in a final conclusion of a study that does not even relate to the Netherlands is downright stupid because it revolves around opinions that what percentages represent.
          Final conclusion of that investigation:
          The conclusion is clear. This research shows that homeschooling produces successful adults who are actively involved in their communities and who remain committed to education for themselves and their children.

          Do children who are actively involved in their community become successful adults?
          What a nonsensical conclusion, it makes sense that children or adults remain attached to education if they have already built up a backlog in their early years that is almost impossible to make up for. Mind you, we're still talking about America. I will come back to some of your other links later, so far my initial conclusions.

        7. Barry,

          About those Islamic home teachers: perhaps read the law for a moment?
          An objection to the direction (religion or belief) of the schools in the area is a legal reason for exemption from compulsory education. So no political propaganda, just the letter of the law.
          Whether this discriminates against atheists? Are there any schools that officially have an atheist denomination? In any case, it is discriminatory for Catholics and other common faiths.
          I therefore believe that everyone should be able to choose homeschooling, regardless of religion or belief.

          About foreign and / or Dutch research: home education is a fairly new phenomenon in the Netherlands, so it has not yet been studied exhaustively here. This is one of the reasons why we revert to foreign research. That has nothing to do with throwing sand in the eyes (after all, it is clearly stated), seems only logical to me and in any case happens a lot more in scientific research.

          Your discussion of the NHERI report is so cluttered with illogical remarks that I will leave that for what it is. But if you are really interested in my feedback on that point, please let me know.

        8. @Barry,

          You wrote: "Immediately on your site you will be offered a link in which you can read a letter in which it is stated that Muslims in the Netherlands should receive home education because their Islamic Amsterdam college is closed."

          It is not true that Muslims in NL homeschool should going to get. This is what families (according to the law, art. 5.b Lpw) decide themselves. We counted on a process of self-selection and have been confirmed. Of the initially 97 exemption appeals, only a few are upheld, as we understand from parents who can handle it themselves.

          You also wrote: “That is why you only come up with foreign investigations that do not relate to the Netherlands. This is throwing sand in the eyes of the people who read this discussion. ”

          Do you have anything against foreign education research, Barry? Why should foreign research not have a predictive effect on Dutch children?

          In any case, the American research linked here has been confirmed by research from South Africa, Canada, England and Norway. Children of parents with a teaching qualification did not score higher than children of non-teachers, an indication that the ample attention for a child in a family situation is at least as effective as education in the didactic and adaptive field (which I do not think it is pointless for be trained).

          You wrote further: "point 1 in that article is misplaced, precisely because it is already mentioned that 49% of the respondents were still studying, so it was completely unnecessary to mention this point in the final conclusion."
          Students no longer do homeschooling. Their homeschooling allowed them to be accepted into a university. In the US, student admission is not automatic on the basis of a (VWO) diploma, as here.

          As for the other points you mention, Ray's study asked home-taught young adults about their opinions and experiences. Just the category that we can really find out if homeschooling is good. If homeschooling had worked badly now, those people would have had good reasons to complain about it in that study, don't you think?

          And as far as 'American propaganda' is concerned, I believe you underestimate the multiformity of American society a little ...

          I will leave it at this, because reactions like this are of little use to me.

  3. It won't be easy to do:
    You must then know what happens when your child learns, so how a child learns and where learning problems arise, being able to provide both adaptive and didactic education, in didactic education you must know the activities in order to get to know them well; the learning itself, the subject matter and the learning process. There is learning and applying learning skills, there are different learning styles and differences between children in the way of learning. The conditions must also be met to achieve good learning by means of Activating teaching methods and adaptive action. Subjects are further taught using various methods, everything must be organized and structured and the parents must be able to act pedagogically, whereby the child can practice much less social skills and make friends. The child cannot have gymnastics lessons with all kinds of motor exercises, and no practical lessons. The educator also barely gets to himself if he wants to make all of this come true.

    1. All this kind of didactic knowledge can be useful when working with large groups of children. At least it seems to me no easy task to manage a class with about 25 children who all have their own talent and character.
      If you work one-on-one with your own child, you mainly rely on your own experience with your child. You know your own child through and through, so you know very well what works well and what doesn't, where the interests lie and how you can meet them.

    2. All this kind of didactic knowledge can be useful when working with large groups of children. At least it seems to me no easy task to manage a class with about 25 children who all have their own talent and character.
      If you work one-on-one with your own child, you mainly rely on your own experience with your child. You know your own child through and through, so you know very well what works well and what doesn't, where the interests lie and how you can meet them.

      Sports activities and practicals are also easy to organize outside of school.

      And if you couldn't get to yourself as an educator with 2 or 3 homeschooled kids, how could a teacher ever teach 25 kids?

    3. “The child cannot have gymnastics lessons with all kinds of motor exercises, and no practical lessons. The educator also barely gets to himself, if he wants to make all of this come true. ”What a bummer, we swim several times a week, cycle a lot and with housework you also encounter a lot of muscles. Then practical lessons, we do many, every day. Different from a nat.bio.sch.lab, but definitely wet. bio and sch practicum, also with microscope and various exciting materials. And then I have the advantage of being married and besides, the kids aren't up 24 hours a day, they have friends where they go now and then and other activities too. You show little sense of reality in your responses when it comes to homeschooling. Maybe you would like to learn more about how it works?

      1. Margreet,
        I'm not talking about sports, but about certain motor skills. And your child cannot play team sports in a family. At school they get different team sports, if you put your child on football they only get football. And I will not accept that you say “whack”! You can also say, "I don't agree with that." But if you never go to school you don't learn other manners, and the child has only you as an example. I think that is a limitation and impoverishment.

        1. Why should every child do all those team sports?
          I have never found anything about it myself, it really did not bring me anything. (only the experience that people were always working around me because others were always just that bit more handy and faster than me)

          And a child who likes team sport can indeed go to a club. And that is 'only' football, or 'only' volleyball - so what?

          The idea that we should all be doing the same thing, all of us doing so-and-so sports, learning the same lessons, etc. Brrrr.
          Every person has his own (learning) needs, his own interests, his own way of development. One person goes on a cycling holiday, walks in the forest and climbs trees. The other goes to football or gymnastics or whatever sport.

        2. I could idd, but nonsense is shorter and just as clear. One should not want to waste too many words on people who do not want to investigate and have no idea what the topic of conversation actually entails and who consider themselves much more important than the topic. In addition, you do nothing but lecture others about something that you yourself know the balls about and you have no idea at all about the family situation of home teachers, their activities and social networks.
          I wish you a pleasant life with all your prejudices that you are lecturing others with.

    4. Julie,

      You write here about all kinds of pedagogical / didactic theory that is important in a classroom situation. A teacher has about 25 children under her / his care, all of whom are very different, who he / she does not know very well (especially in secondary education), and then you also have to deal with a fixed curriculum.

      This is not an issue in home schooling. A homeschooling parent has at most a few children, can work one-on-one (and thus completely attune to the interests and learning needs of that child) and knows the children through and through.
      Then you do not need all kinds of theory and artifice to know what a child needs to learn well, you will experience that automatically as you go through the learning process.

      You can also move outside a gym (and by the way also at a gymnastics club within a gym), a nice walk in the forest with some trees climbing and that sort of thing - with homeschooling you also have the time for that because learning goes one-on-one. -one much more efficient.

      A lot of practical work can also be done at home, or you occasionally rent a lab with a number of families together. There is so much possible.

      And as for your concerns about the educator losing control, homeschooling can be very intensive indeed, yet for me it was the homeschooling experiences that helped me set up my own business. I am now finally doing work that really matches my passions and talents. If that is not up to you!

  4. Absolutely nonsensical if one wants to prohibit this. The (mostly American) studies speak for themselves: home education is better for a child in all respects than mass education as we know it. These children also score better on social levels.

    1. This concerns children who are at home due to behavioral problems. There are also many parents who prefer to teach their children at home because they think that this will enable them to provide better education.

      1. It also states, among other things, that education is broad-based, with different types of school. There are various facilities for children with a disability. It says it is important that children participate and contribute to society. Compulsory education is a protection against influences that prevent them from attending education. They have the right to education and access to it.

        1. Irrelevant. These children have been shown to make a greater contribution to society than those who went to school.
          Yes, children have the right to education, and that is what they get. Only not in the straitjacket of a school factory where children at the age of 40 are packed together with hardly any opportunity for personal development.

        2. Irrelevant? Show some links where the research results are mentioned that relate to our Dutch education system. Packed with 40 on top of each other? Nonsense…

        3. Today it was said on Twitter that statements about education could be posted somewhere.
          It is a challenging proposition, but given the current developments in mainstream schools, it is time to wake up:

          1 Education in NL dangerous for boys! If a large part of SO are boys, something is not right with NL education!

          What? Because something is indeed wrong when such major shifts occur. A few percentages can possibly still be dismissed (were it not that it concerns children and therefore people's lives / future, but that already more than 66% of special education is a boy, then surely all alarm bells should go off? more dismissive of the fact that it is up to boys. I am not kidding that so many boys are suddenly born with “disorders.” Then something else is going on. http://www.onderwijsinspectie.nl/actueel/nieuwsberichten/Meisjes+doen+het+beter+in+het+onderwijs+dan+jongens.html

        4. Julie,

          You pretend this article is about children who are at home because they have dropped out of the school system.
          But it is about children who receive homeschooling because the parents have made a very conscious choice. That is quite different. There is, of course, some overlap between the two groups, because some children become a homeschooling child by being forced to sit at home, but this is not the case for most forced to sit at home, they just want a place in mainstream education. Then you can usually not speak of home education and certainly not a 'choice for home education'.

  5. No costs or effort (charities ...) have been spared to get children - think of developing countries - into school.
    Moreover, if the parents are teaching, who can still work?
    And who guarantees that the parents do not do the schoolwork?

    1. Julie,

      In families with two parents, either one or both parents can work part-time, so that's not a problem. A single-parent family will have to come up with more creative solutions, but I have always managed to combine home schooling and work.

      And that comment that parents would do the schoolwork makes me chuckle a bit.
      This is based on the idea that work must be made that the child does not feel like doing and that the child then tries to get out of it.
      But children have a natural learning need. It is not easy to meet that need at school, because you have 25 children under your care at the same time, who of course do not all have the same learning need. Moreover, you have a fixed program - the same for everyone, but that almost no one * really * matches that learning need.
      Homeschooling allows children to fulfill their natural learning needs much more. For example, my son learned languages through books, films, games and music that he liked very much. He just wanted to understand those books and stuff, wanted to fathom the language constructions (and also puns), etc. We spent many hours together for that. But really no 'school work' what I could have done for him.

      And also in families where work is done in a way that is more reminiscent of school: parents choose a certain way of working out of the belief that it is good for their child. Those same parents are really not going to undermine their own choice by subsequently doing the work they have carefully selected for their child themselves.

  6. Again irrelevant. What matters is the results, and in this the studies are pretty clear. Even though those children don't do “school work” all their lives, if they match or exceed the achievements of school-going children, it doesn't matter at all.

    And how these parents arrange their income seems to me to be their business.

    1. André

      Show us some research results. I bet you can't show any results to us, it's children with behavioral problems. 2000 children with behavioral problems who are taught at home perform better than 2000 children who attend school without behavioral problems? Show us Dutch research results… I challenge you.

      1. Dutch research results will be difficult because hardly any research has been carried out in the Netherlands. Not surprising, since the government tries to discourage this as much as possible.

        http://www.kohnstamminstituut.uva.nl/pdf_documenten/effectiviteit.pdf
        Is then in Dutch, but based on research from outside the Netherlands.

        Just a quote of this:

        *** Almost all of the studies discussed here are pointing
        in the same direction. Children who have received homeschooling distinguish themselves in
        their school progress and in their positive social-emotional development
        their peers who have school education
        have received. According to some studies, the average lead is
        from to children even several grades. A
        such a head start is allowed
        call hefty. The number of studies in which
        on the other hand, no differences between to-children and schoolchildren were found, is small.
        There are even no indications of a backlog of tochildren ***

        Anyway, the argument that the Dutch education system is completely different and cannot be compared will now undoubtedly follow.

      2. It does not occur to you that those behavioral problems may not have arisen due to, among other things, RIGHT going to school?

        The problem is clearly visible in, for example, gifted people, who often have a different way of learning than the average child. The hb child is bored to death, starts throwing his ass against the crib, the teacher shouts ADHD and hop, you have another problem child. This is an example that occurs in practice and will become more common with the forthcoming cutbacks, because there will soon be even less time for adapted fabric.

        1. Anita,

          If those children are gifted then the parents cannot teach them or those parents must be even more gifted than their children. What are the odds that those parents are even more gifted? Besides that ... teachers do not immediately shout ADHD, children are tested for it early in their youth, and also very early in their youth it appears whether they suffer from ADHD or whether they “suffer” from giftedness. Because idd, it is an agony to be bored with an accident for 6 years.

        2. The great thing is that if you let children out, they will search for information themselves nine times out of ten. All parents have to do is give them the opportunity to search for that information: library membership, internet, buying writing and learning materials, etc.

          You don't necessarily have to be gifted to be able to offer those kinds of things. Many parents also learn more themselves when they start homeschooling.

          And children are not automatically tested for giftedness, perhaps if you are lucky. The haphazard testing of children costs far too much money: money that is not available. Many parents have to find out for themselves, because they notice a difference in the behavior of their child in the school, namely the home situation. Many underachievers seem average because they pretend to be less gifted. Then they read all kinds of complicated texts at home, while at school they don't get any further than 'Monkey, nut, mies.' and are given the ADHD predicate because they do not behave properly.

        3. Anita .. response April 1.
          I also have a son of almost 12 who finds it boring from playgroup school, they do not know how to stimulate him, is going to show annoying behavior, and advice ..adhd so medicines.Not so he, now he goes to secondary education and at the They already started intake ritalin .. a shame if I did not want to give it .. then I let him limit etc .. do not know what to do with it, he had an IQ test when he was 5 .. I can not afford a new one now .

  7. André

    I have read all 12 pages that are in your pdf document in the link, what strikes me especially is that there is not 1 mention about children who already have behavioral problems and are taught at home and then improve. Almost all research results come from 1995 or before.

    And yes… the Dutch education system is completely different than in America, to start with we already have no detection gates in the school entrances and lightly armed security in the schools.

    It is easy to quote 16 year old quotes from a pdf document referring to the USA, it does not seem very realistic to me when it comes to the Netherlands.

    What also does not seem very realistic to me in that research is the samples they did, 46,000 to'ers of which a few dozen to a maximum of 226 samples were taken?

    In any case, you say that it will be difficult to show Dutch results and for the right reasons, the Dutch government does not oppose TO without reason. Now comes another question for you, how do you see it for you when parents have to teach their children with behavioral problems and then at the same time correct or adjust those behavioral problems? As Julie said, and I am also convinced, that is simply not feasible for those people. Not for the parents and not for the children.

    1. There is nothing in it about children with behavioral problems because this is not the subject either. This is homeschooling.

      We do not have detection gates in the schools? Heh, not yet no ...
      http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4324/Nieuws/article/detail/1562060/2005/08/15/Detectiepoortjes-op-scholen-nabij.dhtml

      As for your question: the question is in any case about what behavioral problems are involved here and where they come from. Perhaps the school, as Anita said above, is (partly) the reason for those problems. In addition, I am not that impressed with the average teacher, and see no reason to believe that they would do better than the parents. Whether those parents can handle this or not will differ from case to case. Also don't forget that the parents who start this are extremely motivated. They are especially difficult in regular education.

      Anyway, “problem children” is not the whole topic of discussion.

      **** It is easy to quote 16 year old quotes from a pdf document referring to the USA, it does not seem very realistic to me when it comes to the Netherlands. ****

      It doesn't seem realistic to you. Ok let's turn it around. Let us show you some research results from the Netherlands or abroad that show that home education is -not- good.

    2. Barry,
      It is not so long ago that the responsibility for upbringing and education rested entirely with the parents. The parents decided what they did themselves, what they outsourced and to whom.
      In the last century, an increasingly strict compulsory education was introduced.
      But I don't think it is substantiated by research. (I couldn't find that anyway) Can you show me research showing that compulsory education is better for the development of children than when parents are responsible?

  8. André

    Germen did not mention in his article that it is specifically about problem children, but later he added it as an extra comment and so the problem children are indeed the subject of discussion.

    Germs
    March 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm · Reply
    This concerns children who are at home due to behavioral problems. There are also many parents who prefer to teach their children at home because they think that this will enable them to provide better education.

    You are well aware that I cannot show domestic research results, so that is already an unnecessary challenge. You mentioned the irrelevance of Julie's comments on which I gave you that challenge twice, don't you understand yourself that research results from America of 16 years old or older are really irrelevant?

    1. Germen responded to the report that Julie quotes. His response was that the report is irrelevant - correct - because it deals with problem children.
      I have therefore not been talking about children with behavioral problems, but about home schooling in general.

      Julia's comments are also irrelevant, especially with regard to “normal” children who are homeschooled (with quotes because I will be the last to call these types of children abnormal).

      Incidentally, I also gave you the opportunity to come up with results abroad, so a bit silly not to give home now. but I'm not surprised you don't come up with these studies, because they simply aren't there.
      Or as concluded in that study: *** There are even no indications of a backlog of tochildren ***

      Oh and not all studies highlighted in that report are 15 years old. It also includes an investigation which was completed in 2001.

      1. Andre, it is true, I also said almost all studies. Well, well, I don't have much more to say otherwise I will repeat myself.

        I will read the whole story again, maybe I misunderstood or misplaced the context in which Germen commented.

        1. Don't forget these social and civic development talks:

          http://www.thuisonderwijs.net/artikelen/blok-is-school-echt-zo-belangrijk-voor-de-sociaal-emotionele-ontwikkeling.pdf

          http://www.nheri.org/Home-Educated-and-Now-Adults.html
          http://www.thuisonderwijs.net/artikelen/volwassenen-onderzoek-nheri.html
          (Dutch summary). Arie Slob of the ChristenUnie referred to this research result in the parliamentary consultation on home education with Minister Van Bijsterveld.

  9. For the behavioral problems, if these still exist after a while at home school, you can also use other people (psychiatrists, etc., whatever professional is needed) than the parents if necessary. Moreover, if homeschooling does not work, you could of course always consider sending the children back to school. It is not an either / or choice if homeschooling is simply a possible choice.

    Even though the research results are older, I don't see why they should be irrelevant. Julie's comments don't really make sense, because you don't need pedagogy in a home schooling situation. In fact, because of that pedagogical background, teachers and teachers are worse at homeschooling than parents because they are trained to teach classes, not individuals. Claims of students can still be made with the cito if necessary, under controlled circumstances when there must then be so much mistrust. And who should work there? Firstly: that is not the business of the government, secondly: is that how we want to deal with our children? They have to go to school so Mom and Dad can work?

    1. Anita,

      Of course you need pedagogy in a home education situation, especially when it comes to problem children. you can't hire a pedagogue for 10 hours a day to correct the child, can you? Then the child will no longer learn. Even if your child is not a problem child, you need pedagogy, at the same time that your child learns the school material, you must also be involved in parenting, they do that in schools too. Just a small example, at the primary school my child is in they learn that it is very rude to interrupt each other when a child or the teacher tells something. Isn't that pedagogy or not?

      1. Why would I need an educator to correct my child? That kind of help is often only needed in extreme situations, in the case of autism and the like. Moreover: even a child with behavioral problems does not attend school for 10 hours a day, I believe about 6 hours, and the rest of the time it is usually just at home, with the parents. Do you think they do nothing to correct at those moments? That from the moment the child is 4, only teachers do that?

      2. With most so-called 'problem children' the biggest problem is that the school situation does not match their character / learning needs / etc., not that there is something wrong with the child itself.
        Because children can live and learn in their own way at home and they do not have to function in a system that does not suit them, these types of problems usually disappear very quickly when switching to homeschooling (or they do not arise at all when homeschooling is started immediately ).
        This is the experience of many home teachers (including myself).

    2. Anita,
      You can leave your Kortjakket at home, adaptive education will pass you by, and I hope that you always have your day, never get sick, and don't have a household or just want to go shopping.
      Good luck!

      1. That is a very childish reaction, if I may say that. You will not get more adaptive education than homeschooling. Moreover: do you really think that the household is at a standstill or that you can never go shopping? If you immerse yourself in the phenomenon of home schooling, I would say, you will learn that it is something completely different than you currently think it is.

        1. Your words "childish" and "no sense" tell me that you probably have no respect for children's initiatives, ideas and choices.

        2. Your words 'Kortjakket' and 'Success' tell me that you probably have no respect for initiatives, ideas and choices of parents (and maybe also children) ...

          How you can derive from my reaction that I do not respect children's initiatives, ideas and choices I think is clever, because your original reaction and the applicability of pedagogy in a home education situation has little to do with it.

        3. Immerse yourself in “adaptive education”, I would say. Then you learn that it is something very different from what you currently think it is.

        4. Apparently the discussion is getting a bit too long, so just like that.

          From wiki:

          Adaptive education (also: appropriate education or tailor-made education) is an educational ideal of some educationalists to allow pupils to move on to special education less frequently by creating opportunities within a regular school to acquire knowledge in their own way and at their own pace.

          In other words: home education is therefore an adaptive education par excellence, because it can respond perfectly to the needs of the child. Except that there is no question of (not having to) transfer to special education, because that is not necessary (except in very extreme cases).

        5. It is not only about needs, but also about the (appropriate - learning) skills.
          But you don't have to accept anything from me either.

  10. Anita,

    you give a few reasonable arguments, yes gifted children, provided they enjoy learning, are insatiable when it comes to getting information and will do a lot of work themselves to get that information. You do not have to be gifted to be able to offer that information, that is true, you do have to be gifted to be able to direct them in that information. If they have questions, they must have someone they can get answers from who also makes sense, so those parents should always know more than those children. Children who start looking for themselves also do not receive the correct direction when it comes to their future, because they are children they will not have an overview of which subjects they have to learn in order to be able to participate in society at a workplace later on. What is the point of learning if you do not have a clear structural goal with it? In this case, steering is the keyword.

    1. Maybe it's me, but I really don't see the problem. Information can be found everywhere, especially nowadays with the internet. If a parent does not know the answer to a question, you can look for it together in the library, on the internet, in the newspaper, anywhere. You really don't have to be able to spoon it up right away to make yourself useful as a teacher. I used to teach my teacher too, because she didn't know certain things. Was she therefore not suitable as a teacher?

      When they later have an idea of what they want to become, you figure out where you have to study to get that done. Then you go to that institute, you request information about the admission requirements and that is what you focus on. If necessary, which subjects there are so that you can already learn ahead. More guidance is not necessary, or am I misunderstanding you?

      1. Anita,

        I think you understand me, the fact that you don't see the problem is the problem itself. If you as a parent still have to do the studies to be able to school your child, you always run behind the facts as a teacher / parent. As a parent you will have to be more gifted than your child in order to be able to understand the subject matter what he has to learn. And if you, as a parent, have a normal child at home, which is otherwise a problem child, you will have to be quite gifted in your pedagogical skills to be able to teach your child, skills that pedagogues have to study for years at a higher vocational education level (and the then often not yet possible). Even though parents know their own children best, that does not mean that they can handle their children.

      2. Anita,

        I think you understand me well, but the fact that you don't see the problem is the problem itself. If you, as a parent, have to do studies to educate your child, it automatically means that you are always running after the facts. In this way you are always lagging behind your gifted child, and if your child is not gifted but can learn normally but is otherwise a problem child, you must have exceptional pedagogical qualities to be able to educate your child. Most parents cannot handle their children when they are problem children, let alone go to school their children.

        1. But as a parent you don't have to do any studies, you learn together, at the same time. (Example: no, I don't know that insect, shall we take a picture of the animal and find out together in the library?) And because you have all the time of the week there, except for the time you sleep, this a lot faster than at school. You give the child handles so that it can rise above you, so that it does not ultimately depend on third parties for its development. Something that has also been tried in secondary schools in recent years, but that does not work out well, I understand?

          And let go of that idea about problem children (as has been said before), because most children who would be homeschooled are not at all. And if they are, a school is not necessarily needed to tackle those problems: most professionals who work with problem children work outside of school hours, so not even at (a) school.

        2. Anita,

          I would like to let go of the idea of problem children, then I also have to let go of the idea of gifted children. What do normal children who perform normally do at home? Doesn't it make sense to let children who can function normally function at home learn?

        3. Barry,
          You ask what normal children who perform normally should be at home.
          What makes me wonder: why would you force children who have an ideal learning situation at home (so at least for homeschooling motivated parents) to go to a much less ideal learning situation for so many hours a day?
          (and by that I do not mean anything negative to say about teachers, they also have to function in a school system with classes of about 25 students and with a fixed program that must be completed - in itself not ideal for a good learning outcome)

    2. Barry,
      If it turns out that students are bored and still achieve very good results (but that is not necessarily necessary) with proven giftedness, then they receive enrichment material, which nevertheless contains enough challenge.

    3. In a school situation where children have to follow a fixed program, you will have to act in a guiding way. But with homeschooling you can start much more on the child's own interests and own learning needs.
      Some home teachers are more directing than others, but all the families I know about are at least more aligned with individual children than our school system could ever do.

      Home education is much more about guidance instead of guidance.
      And whether they are gifted or not, many home school children know things (have taught themselves things) that their parents do not know. But as parents you often have an important role in that too.
      In such a case, it is more about the personal involvement that you as parents have with your child and her / his learning process. By experiencing that with your child, you automatically give a lot of feedback that gives your child important wisdom about learning and developing yourself.

      And you can never oversee what knowledge someone needs for his / her work later on. In the work I do now, I have very little use for everything I learned at school. (By the way, a lot of the things I did outside of school at the time) And this is the first time that I do work that really suits me.

    4. I will put it even more strongly: children learn!
      Not just gifted children. A child does nothing but learn. There is no other way. Each at its own pace from the moment it is born. (And that doesn't stop at the transition to adulthood, by the way.)

      Children who are sufficiently stimulated and supported also enjoy learning. Children who are forced to master things within a certain pattern, while that pattern does not suit them… they will reject themselves and become “problem children”. Remove the grid and in most cases these children will also show little or no problems.

    5. I am gifted and my son is gifted. School is not a goal in itself, learning is not a goal in itself, learning is a MEANS to achieve your goal, namely: an adult with the skills, knowledge and experience required to nurture and develop herself.
      The only thing you need to know more or better as a teacher / parent is study skills and basic things such as writing. The idea that a child can only learn through control is bizarre: there is more out there than we already know, that research is further learning. Teach a child to read, think critically, assess sources, gather information, etc. The rest can be self-taught.
      My son is 2. I found out a week ago that he reads English fluently - I already knew about Dutch, he did when he was just 1. He has a reading comprehension at group 4 level and is already multiplying. He just picks it up, from youtube, from subtitles, I know what.
      What the hell is such a child supposed to do in a school, where they can't teach him anything new?
      School is great fun for the middle group. But as a critical education consumer, I do not send a child to a course that is of no use to him. Certainly not if he spends so much time on it, as is the case with primary school.
      You also don't force a normal child to play with a rattle all day long between other children who can do nothing more than that. Or will he soon have to go to secondary school with 5, and with 8 to uni? We can easily purchase this learning material and get it partly for free via MIT open source and Khan academy. And then just sports and clubs with peers and go home at your own pace. Delicious right?

      Education in the Netherlands is fun and good for many children. But not for everyone.

  11. I notice that a teacher is very much put on a pedestal, and that a parent would be absolutely incapable of fulfilling that role.
    Seems rather naive to me.

    Let's not pretend that the average teacher is so fantastic and knows everything about the psychology of a child, and is very responsible pedagogically.
    Let's face it, if it were, there wouldn't be that many problems with kids these days.

    I said it before, but don't forget that a parent who decides to do this is extremely motivated. Must be, otherwise it wouldn't even get it done given the ridiculous restrictions that have to be overcome before it is allowed at all.

    Homeschooling is not for everyone, that seems clear to me, but for those who want it, it should be possible.

    1. I agree with that. In the case of highly educated parents, they are likely to do better than a teacher. High school is getting tougher. With many parents, this dust has already subsided. On the other hand, it can be intellectually stimulating.

        1. Because…? Remember that parents can spend a lot more time per child and also know the child better than the teacher.

        2. Parents can do more on one contact, but children learn not to participate in the group and to work together, for example.
          It is also more difficult for the parents to determine when the child needs more of a challenge or where the child can still handle it. Availability and time will be disappointing.

        3. Think that is not too bad. I myself have a lot of respect for a teacher who stands in front of a class with between 30 and 40 children every day and who manages to actually teach them something.

          I just think that a parent can do better in a 1 on 1 situation (just like a teacher can do better in a 1 on 1 situation). Certainly elementary school level must be doable for someone with a reasonable education.

          It seems as if homeschooling were a threat to school education. Doesn't seem really realistic to me. Few parents are willing and able to put in the time and energy it takes. Those who can / want to do that are fine. And ALL studies endorse that too. Whether they like it or not.

        4. My children now say the opposite after 8 years of school and 2.5 and 1/5 years. Teacher skipped this, teacher skipped that. The math level was so sad after the BO that it took me 1/5 year to get it up to the level of the current TO curriculum (own year class but then US). The children don't want to go back, but they do learn with more fun. Oh yeah, according to school they also had all 3 labels, now that they get more rest and less on their necks, you hardly notice that anymore… .but they do get high marks on their tests (yes idd, we do )

        5. margreet,

          i am someone who views business on a grand scale, not individually. You have my utmost respect for achieving this with your children.

  12. Admin,

    You may like the comment I posted at this time:

    Barry
    April 1, 2011 at 3:47 pm Reply
    Anita,

    Remove.
    Due to an error in my browser or on the site visionary, the first equivalent response was not posted so I wrote it again half an hour later, now it is there 2 times.

    thanks.

  13. Anita,

    Homeschooling should only be for problem cases or for gifted children if only because we would then need hundreds of thousands more civil servants to be able to control the families whether the parents (and children) are also doing what is expected of them. To move forward in life it is always 2 steps forward and 1 step back, we do not want to go all the way back to prehistoric times do we? Obviously, the parents who are allowed to do this are very motivated to do this, do you think that roughly 8,000,000 parents are just as motivated as the 2,000 who are now allowed to do so? And also stay motivated? Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, let's say that 1 of the 2 parents is always at work… 4,000,000 parents then. Most children who enter puberty automatically become problem children, although this is temporary. How much discipline do you think parents can muster to teach and educate adolescent children? Adolescence is something every child does, you cannot change that.

    1. Homeschooling does not have a particularly attractive effect, as has already been shown by research from other countries where it is a fully-fledged alternative to school education. If you look at Belgium, for example, there is no need for an impressive civil service to keep an eye on the home teachers, it simply falls under the same department as the control of the schools.

      Besides, what I have said before: the one does not preclude the other. A child can be in a situation where home education is a fully-fledged alternative of school education from school to home, but also from home to school.

      Opinions are divided about 'puberty', for example I was never a typical adolescent myself. My parents trusted me not to run in seven ditches at once (which they were right about), so I didn't have to push myself off.

      1. Anita,

        Both you and others fall back on research from other countries, where different cultures and different norms and values prevail. The American studies are very outdated and I have not yet seen anything about Belgian results. So these are weak arguments. If we have this discussion about a few children, instead of 2000 to 4000 then I have completely wasted my time, we have to see this on a national level or even on a world level. that is why we are also on visionair.nl. If of the (I'm just saying something) 1,000,000 children in the Netherlands keep switching from school to home and vice versa, nationwide buildings have to be maintained everywhere that only cost money and yields nothing. Furthermore, and that is an important point of Julie, children will not learn social interactions from and with other children. These social skills are important for a further life. of course we can continue to fall back on weak studies where a maximum of 226 children have been tested on 46,000 children in a population of roughly 1 billion people, we are not here in Belgium or America.

        1. As long as little research has been done in the Netherlands, we will have to do it first with foreign research. And cultures are different, but it is all about Western cultures and I don't think American parents will have very different parental instincts than Dutch parents…?

          To be honest, I find the suggestion that 1,000,000 children will keep switching from school to home and back again quite laughable. Most parents have no interest at all in home schooling, they are happy to hand over that task to school. It is currently estimated that there are in the 300 home schooled children in the Netherlands. Those are not very many school buildings… And also fairly constant, because there is not that much change.
          Parents who are not motivated to homeschool do not generally choose to do so either, so you don't have to worry about the homeschooling quality of unmotivated parents.

          The typical adolescent behavior is usually much less pronounced in home-schooled children. I think that this too (just like many 'label problems') often has more to do with an educational / living situation that does not match the own (learning) need than it is a permanent development phase.

        2. You assume that everyone will switch wildly between home and school education. You really don't have to be afraid of that, most parents are not interested in home schooling, that has been shown. Just like that not all parents are waiting for montessori or free education, just to name a few.

          It has also long been shown that you do not have to be afraid of the social development of children who receive homeschooling. Those kids are really not locked up in golden turrets or anything like that, they often volunteer and do other activities like sports clubs. There are plenty of opportunities to make contacts, school is really not the only opportunity to make contacts.

          And more studies have been done with more than those 226 children you mention, for example a total of 17,675 children compared to a group of one million (ACTP, 1997-2001)
          Or a study of 20,760 children, a 1999 study by Rudner.

          Moreover: if you know a little about statistical research, you know that numbers in themselves do not say anything about the representativeness of a study ...

        3. Barry,

          What do you base on that homeschooled children do not learn social intercourse? I think that's quite a firm assumption.
          Personally, I think one of the great advantages of home education is that children can experience a much healthier social development. At school you are in a rather unnatural situation, with about 25 peers together, in a limited space, where there is 1 teacher who determines exactly what everyone should do. In my life I have never actually encountered such a situation.
          Home educated children are much more involved with people of all ages, can (largely) choose for themselves when they want to see others or when they want to be quiet for themselves, are not so exposed to unhealthy social behavior such as bullying and peer pressure.
          At school, children have to learn social skills from each other, because there are relatively few adults. At home there is much more direct interaction with and example of adults, from which children learn a lot.

        4. @Barry
          "Furthermore, and that is an important point of Julie, children will not learn social interactions from and with other children."

          It is strange that we always get such positive reactions about the behavior of our children who have been at school for 1 year. In the other years we as parents, deliberately and with great pleasure, have focused on the education and upbringing of the children. In doing so, we take into account their academic capabilities, but also their emotional and social needs.
          As a result, our children get along equally well with people of all ages, are caring towards young children, and eager to learn and polite towards people older than them.

        5. Marjo,

          Just read the comment I addressed to Germen, then you will understand where the bottlenecks are. People in this small bureaucratic country who already manage to let their child study at home deserve a little aplaus as far as I am concerned, we are here at visionair.nl, do you also dare to think visionary? And then immediately read the last comment I addressed to Peter van Zuidam. It is about our future and not about how great you are doing or having done it. Success stories alone are of no use to us.

    2. Adolescence is very rare in families where children have never been to school. Before there were schools (as we know them now, about 100 years), the adolescent phenomenon was not there. Adolescence comes together because of too many children with too much free time and too much money, stirring each other up. Previously, children worked with a parent or were linked to an older person in a guild. Teenagers did not exist then.

      1. Margreet,

        Any child who undergoes hormonal changes will enter puberty. That the phenomenon did not exist 100 years ago cannot be true, it was simply quashed by slapping the children on the fingers with rulers when they spoke up against the teachers. (or any other corporal punishment)

        That it is now rare in families where the children have never been to school… well, I can say little about that except that it seems stiff to me.

        1. eh before there were schools more than 100 years ago and before. Had I written it down unclearly? I did not write that adolescent behavior did not occur in schools.

        2. Barry,

          Of course, these hormonal changes occur in all children, but children who are in an environment that meets their needs usually show little 'troublesome' behavior.
          In many other cultures (think of nature peoples, for example) they are not familiar with the phenomenon of adolescent. There, children grow in adult responsibility in a much more natural way, so that the situation in which they live grows more with their physical / hormonal development.

    3. Barry,

      Why would we need hundreds of thousands of officials to monitor homeschooling?
      For the time being it concerns a few hundred children, who do not need 1000 civil servants per child? The government saves a lot of money for every child who does not go to school. Supervision will never cost more than a place at school.

  14. Always Freedom

    Good day everyone, just to get straight to the point.

    Your fallacy begins where it is believed that they can determine for others how they will teach their children. This is something that no one can and may decide for another, certainly not some organized Power (Government, State). The parents are the only ones who have such authority over the children. The government has the task of serving the citizen, not dominating it. The State does not give the children to the parents, the parents do not raise the children by the grace of the State. The State is a body made up of elected representatives of the people who serve the citizens and their children.

    Furthermore, the concepts of 'learning' and 'education' should not be elevated to something that it simply is not. A teacher does not need to know everything in terms of content, nor to master or be able to do everything.

    The primary attribute that the person providing the teaching must possess is devotion. Commitment to the subject, the learner. The love of a devoted parent is superlative in that sense.

    Information is freely available everywhere, something that has never been any different in a reasonably free society. Appropriate teaching material is also not reserved for a school or university. To learn is to live, to live is to learn. A school can have a facilitating effect, a teacher at a school can play a supporting and serving role, but never in any way that exceeds the natural authority of the parent. The teacher is then only a helper called in by the parent to fulfill a task. A task that, with a little good will and effort, could also be fulfilled by the parent themselves. There are parents who prefer this way. And that's fine for them. But not for us.

    AV

  15. Always Freedom

    With regard to giftedness; how many teachers in regular education are gifted? It is, in fact, a very low percentage of teachers who teach gifted children, who are themselves. This is therefore not a criterion, a pupil can indeed learn more than the person who directs the education. You should therefore no longer think in terms of master-> pupil, but in terms of coaching, guidance, support, providing a solid grounding. I cannot imagine that my children learn as little as I do. Everything is geared towards surpassing us.

    1. Always Freedom,

      I have nothing against anarchy if anarchy leads to a healthy renewal. What you describe in your argument is the impetus to anarchy with the result that we go straight back to the stone age. Without a government that directs training in which all kinds of committees help determine the content of teaching packages, a country will eventually stop developing and growing.

      1. Always Freedom

        In itself I am not in favor of anarchy, rather libertarianism. Incidentally, the list of home-taught individuals who have made a significant contribution to the history of mankind is almost impossible to beat. Self-study also counts, of course. In essence, I am convinced that everyone is self-taught and people around them mainly act as signposts.

        Learning, as far as I am concerned, equals thinking. And where there is absolute and total freedom of thought, it must be the same for learning. Learning should not be viewed separately from life, but rather fully integrated.

      2. If this argument were correct, there could be no civilization überhaubt. After all, without “government and all kinds of committees” there is no civilization.
        Homeschooling is allowed in almost all of Europe. Were they thrown back to the stone age too ?!

        In addition, it is quite dubious to automatically assume that what the government determines is best. I may assume that I do not need to give examples of this, because there are countless.

        Incidentally, you may of course question the investigations, that is your right. However, come up with studies that support your point of view. So far I have only read an opinion without any support. And that is fine, but then it is a bit weak to question officially conducted research results.

        *** other countries, there are different cultures and different norms and values. ***
        vs
        *** we need to see this on a national level or even on a world level. ***

        What is it now, should we look at it globally, or nationally? And how rural? If even Belgium is not close enough for you, then this discussion makes little sense.

        1. Always Freedom

          Eh… this is not a response to my writing…? The discussion hierarchy is getting somewhat unclear now.

        2. I think this was in response to Barry's post of 9:22 PM (Commissions) and 8:59 PM (Other cultures, country / world level)

        3. Andre,

          To begin with, there is hardly any civilization worldwide in most countries, we belong to one of the most modern countries in the world and that is not without reason. That is because this is simply where the training is best and everything that ultimately results from it.

          When it comes to Belgium ... a country that more than 10 years after it was declared bankrupt, still does not have a good road network and needed the wealth of the Dutch as a tax haven to recover ... hmmm ... well, in terms of education so they still have a lot to teach them, no wonder they prefer to let their children learn at home.

          I have also said before that I have no investigations, so I do not understand why both you and Els start whining that I have to come up with investigations, is that your defense that I say that your investigations have nothing to do with the Netherlands? And why "how rural?" The Netherlands is the Netherlands. I do not automatically assume that what the government determines is the best, I do assume that what the government determines with regard to teaching material is the best. Again, tell me how that should work if 1,000,000 kids are going to stay home to study at home… puberty… menopause… penopause… midlife crisis… parents with exemplary children while having a lot of financial worries on their own for example ... issues that children come into contact with less when they are in schools so that they can focus more on their education instead of on the problems that their parents may also have.

        4. Again, tell me why you always assume that 1 million children will be homeschooled? There is no reason to assume that.

          Your entire argument is based on assumptions, assumptions and even more assumptions. Let go of those assumptions, it is very enlightening ...

        5. Barry, you wrote:

          I have also said before that I have no investigations, so I do not understand why both you and Els start whining that I have to come up with investigations, is that your defense that I say that your investigations have nothing to do with the Netherlands?

          **
          Then why do you ask others to substantiate their words with research if you do not want or are unable to do so yourself?
          It seems logical that if you ask for it yourself, you can expect that question in return.
          **

          I do assume that what the government determines with regard to teaching material is the best.

          **
          I don't, and many people along with me feel the same way.
          Like my father, who was a professor of mathematics and has seen the level of the incoming students drop for years.
          **

          Again, tell me how that should work if 1,000,000 kids are going to stay home to be taught at home,

          **
          Which 1,000,000 children do you mean?
          **

          ... puberty ... menopause ... penopause ... midlife crisis ... parents with exemplary children while they themselves have a lot of financial worries on their mind, for example ... issues that children come into contact with when they are in schools so that they can focus more on their training instead of the problems that their parents can also have.

          **
          I think it is very healthy if children also indirectly experience how their parents deal with all kinds of 'life things'. After all, they will also have to deal with this themselves in the future.
          And parents who have their lives reasonably in order (also emotionally) can really handle some 'life things' in addition to homeschooling their children. (I also speak from experience here)
          **

      3. Barry,

        If a country could only grow and develop with committees that establish teaching packages, how on earth did we get to the Netherlands where we are today!
        As if those committees have always been there!

        Incidentally, people have a strong self-motivation to develop and I personally think that 'teaching packages devised by committees' tend to slow down rather than stimulate this natural urge to develop.

        1. Els,

          I just responded honestly that I had no studies on which to base my conclusions, which does not alter the fact that I have my own opinion that is substantiated with arguments. I do not accept arguments that children are crammed into a class with 40 at a time. Now this fact has meanwhile also become irrelevant, you asked me why I asked for studies, this was the reason.

          Andre commented on Julie twice that her comments were irrelevant whereupon I challenged him to come up with studies in the hope that it would make me wiser, studies from America or Belgium are definitely not leading for the rest of the world . Maybe it was a bit silly that I used the word whining, I also later said to the website owner of the link you gave me that I was getting very tired, so I also went offline. now I'm going to keep my promise and research his website so that I can arrive with an honest (from my point of view) judgment.

        2. Julie's comments to which Andre responded with "irrelevant" were (also in my opinion) irrelevant to the discussion at issue here. Let me explain why:

          One was about an ombudsman's report on home-sitters, in which Julie pretended that home-sitters are equal to home-schooled children. Perhaps an understandable fallacy for someone who knows little about home schooling, but the comparison is just as flawed as if I were to say that a lamp post is the same as a tree because they are both in the ground.

          Especially the sentence 'Compulsory education is a protection against influences that hinder them in attending education. They have the right to education and access to it. '
          Home-schooled children * receive * education, so their right to education is * indeed * guaranteed.

          The other was about parents who would make their children's schoolwork. (At least I assume Andre's reaction was about that, and not about what Julie continued to write)
          The purpose of learning (and therefore also of (home) education) is to acquire knowledge, to develop yourself. Not making lessons.
          So the question of whether parents create lessons for their child is indeed irrelevant. (my son has never taken any 'lessons' since he left school anyway, his learning process is very different) It is about whether children learn something, whether they develop. So you have to look at that. And the necessary research has been done on this, but no worrying things have emerged. Or you must find a head start of several years disturbing.

        3. okay, I just assumed that if I recommend a report that it be read first, I don't have to quote any of the things in it.
          For the rest: you don't know what it's all about. (response March 30 08.18)

        4. Julie,

          If you are citing a report that is clearly about a different topic (forced home sitting) than what the discussion and the above article are about (homeschooling), why should we read it?

          I have already tried to respond a few times to your response of March 30, 8.18, but something always goes wrong with passing on the response. (this site does not work properly I noticed)
          I'll make an attempt here.

          You write about all kinds of pedagogical / didactic theory. I can imagine that this could be important if you have to work with classes of 25 students (each with different aptitudes and interests) who you have limited knowledge of and who have a fixed curriculum to complete.
          In homeschooling it works very differently. There you have to deal with your own children (whom you know through and through) and through one-on-one contact you will receive continuous feedback on what you are doing. That way it is not at all difficult to tune in to the learning needs of the child.
          In a school situation you can never * really * tune in to your own learning needs. So there you need all kinds of didactic skills / tricks to get the children to do that and learn what you have to let them do and learn.
          My son just wants to learn something and then I help him with that. Together we look for learning materials, eg fun reading books and films to learn languages and then we get to work. We can do exactly the things that are appropriate at that moment, my son can indicate when it has been enough again and we can just follow that, because there are not 24 other children who have completely different needs.
          What I write here is more about a few years ago. My son is now 18 and now largely arranges his learning himself (I will of course remain involved, but more in the background). Through the experiences as described above, he has learned well how to take up his own learning process. So if you still have concerns about 'learning to learn', I can reassure you about that too.

  16. As a teacher I get the jitters while reading all this. So am I expected to be able to answer every question of every child just like that? Of course I can never do that as a teacher. I also regularly tell a child that I will look it up and come back to it. So why should parents who teach at home not be able to do that? I love to teach, I love kids, they are great. But I also love that there are parents who want to put so much time into their child (ren) and educate them themselves. Those parents do not have much time for themselves, so what, if they choose to, that's fine anyway.

  17. In a number of responses I do see that teachers would sit on an almost magical totem pole and at a level that parents could never reach.

    Why is my experience and what I see around me just the opposite? I bet that many home-schooled parents will often be higher educated than many school teachers.

    The arrogance really radiates from it. Parents are in my opinion (there are always exceptions) more than suitable to educate children themselves.

  18. Fortunately, there are also good teachers, but they have to work with a lot of children and teachers cannot do magic (at least, I never met them). Teachers must have a teaching license because they have to do with other people's children. Parents should be able to deduce from such a piece of paper that their children are in good hands with the teacher. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.
    For example, when our children came from the secondary school, I needed six months to, among other things, raise their math level so that they could keep up with the level of the homeschool curriculum (their own year class) and I am not the only one who regrets the Dutch math level. finds.

    Parents who teach their own children can also monitor the learning level themselves. Teachers must be able to discuss this because they (again) work with other people's children and therefore have to answer to the parents (who always remain responsible BWB1 art 247) with whose children they work. Parents have, as it were, outsourced the teaching to the teacher, so that they pay by means of taxes and can therefore see something in return.

  19. Barry (April 1, 2011 at 10:36 PM), you like to think big: is this big and bad enough for you ?: Today it said on Twitter that statements about education could be posted somewhere.
    It is a challenging proposition, but given the current developments in mainstream schools, it is time to wake up:

    Education in NL dangerous for boys! As a big part of Spec.Ond. boys is there something wrong with NL education!

    What? Because something is indeed wrong when such major shifts occur. A few percentages can possibly still be dismissed (were it not that it concerns children and therefore people's lives / future, but that already more than 66% of special education is a boy, then surely all alarm bells should go off? more dismissive of the fact that it is up to boys. I am not kidding that so many boys are suddenly born with “disorders.” Then something else is going on. http://www.onderwijsinspectie.nl/actueel/nieuwsberichten/Meisjes+doen+het+beter+in+het+onderwijs+dan+jongens.html

    1. Margreet,

      the topic you mention is certainly big enough for me but unfortunately it does not fit into the discussion, I also heard this topic on the radio, I will look at that link of yours later, maybe it can be included in this discussion.

  20. Margreet, I agree with you regarding the calculation level in the Netherlands. Compared to some 20 years ago, mathematical knowledge has deteriorated enormously, despite all new methods and 'improved' ways of explaining. My sister is a math teacher and complains every beginning of the school year that she also has to give math lessons during the first months, because students cannot do mental arithmetic with simple numbers and that many do not know the tables. Plus that unfortunately many teachers from the Pabo come who cannot calculate properly themselves. I see it with interns, with young starting teachers. It is only logical that they cannot do that, because they have not learned any better at primary school themselves. I may be a teacher, but I am not blind to the decline of schools in the field of learning.

  21. Julie, why are you reacting so bluntly? Are you a teacher? Then you should be too well educated to let you go like that, right? Then rather try to do something about the shortages of schools instead of extolling the teachers, we are also just ordinary people. And usually the children do not know better inside than the parents. What we often know better, when a child is in our class, is how far a child is in math, for example. But why should parents not be able to do that if they teach 1 on 1? We can also do many things that we have not learned for, but have just started doing or that we have studied. For example, I am quite good at gardening, from vegetable garden to flower garden. I have developed those things to a decent level over the years. Don't you have those things too? Then why can't someone learn to teach properly without a diploma? Regards, Astrid.

    1. Astrid,

      I myself have learned, among other things, for driving instructor B, this revolves around 1 on 1 teaching. I have to say that I agree with your arguments, nothing in life is purely right or wrong.

    2. You don't understand why I'm "being so rude?" Can't you deduce that from somewhere? I don't engage in some ways like certain people here do, I've learned to communicate in a professional way. And that I would praise teachers is an interpretation of you, I just want to portray education realistically. And if you can tell the time, can you also fly to the Bahamas?

      1. I don't want to be annoying, just a comment like

        Pinocchio? Firewood….'

        Doesn't really come across as communicating professionally to me ...
        In my opinion, your other reactions do not really testify to the will to communicate carefully and professionally.

        1. Look at yourself!!
          Another idea: burn down all schools, set the whole world ablaze,
          give my portion to Fikkie!

        2. Julie,

          I do my best to communicate carefully. If I do say things that seem uncomfortable to you, let me know what it is that you object to and why.
          I don't know what you're referring to now.

          ———————–

          Then below a comment that I have tried to post above (with your comment of April 2, 2011 10:02). In one way or another, reactions from me regularly go wrong on this site. I hope it works now.

          ———————–

          If you are citing a report that is clearly about a different topic (forced home sitting) than what the discussion and the above article are about (homeschooling), why should we read it?

          I have already tried to respond a few times to your response of March 30, 8.18, but something always goes wrong with passing on the response. (this site does not work properly I noticed)
          I'll make an attempt here.

          You write about all kinds of pedagogical / didactic theory. I can imagine that this could be important if you have to work with classes of 25 students (each with different aptitudes and interests) who you have limited knowledge of and who have a fixed curriculum to complete.
          In homeschooling it works very differently. There you have to deal with your own children (whom you know through and through) and through one-on-one contact you will receive continuous feedback on what you are doing. That way it is not at all difficult to tune in to the learning needs of the child.
          In a school situation you can never * really * tune in to your own learning needs. So there you need all kinds of didactic skills / tricks to get the children to do that and learn what you have to let them do and learn.
          My son just wants to learn something and then I help him with that. Together we look for learning materials, eg fun reading books and films to learn languages and then we get to work. We can do exactly the things that are appropriate at that moment, my son can indicate when it has been enough again and we can just follow that, because there are not 24 other children who have completely different needs.
          What I write here is more about a few years ago. My son is now 18 and now largely arranges his learning himself (I will of course remain involved, but more in the background). Through the experiences as described above, he has learned well how to take up his own learning process. So if you still have concerns about 'learning to learn', I can reassure you about that too.

        3. See, a good example of the pinnacle of good and professional communication ... * note the sarcasm ... *

  22. Anita,

    don't tell me what to let go of and what not, at least I keep coming up with new arguments, I have a lot more arguments that I will elaborate on later. When you talk about assumptions,

    Quote:
    And more studies have been done with more than those 226 children you mention, for example a total of 17,675 children compared to a group of one million (ACTP, 1997-2001)
    Or a study of 20,760 children, a 1999 study by Rudner.

    Moreover: if you know a little about statistical research, you know that numbers in themselves do not say anything about the representativeness of a study ...

    You give some figures and immediately say that the numbers of those figures cannot be correct because of the representativeness of the research, so these are also assumptions. so don't tell me to let go of assumptions.

    1. Incorrect assumptions are not really conducive to a clear discussion, so I think it is indeed important to take a closer look at your own assumptions.
      Just a few examples:

      - How do you get to those 1,000,000 home-schooled children?

      - And what do you base on that Belgian education is not good? (because their road network would not be good either?) - I myself rather think that the Belgian education system is so good that homeschooling is seen as less of a threat there

      - How do you come to the conclusion that there is hardly any civilization worldwide? What do you actually understand by civilization?

      - What do you base on that the education in our country is (about) the best in the whole world? (many comments from parents and educators that I read on the internet do not point in that direction anyway)

      I'll leave it at this for a moment, I think the idea is quite clear.

  23. I am not at all saying that those numbers cannot be correct, how do you get to that? I am just saying that you cannot simply say that a study is unrealistic because 'only 226 children' have been examined. And you do. So I give you studies that are a bit more up your alley (more than 10,000 children) and you claim that I say that the numbers can't be right? I just have a little more knowledge about the how and what of statistical research, and know that it may indeed be the case (note CAN BE, I'm not saying it is) that those studies with 10k + children do not necessarily have to be representative . But it may also be the case that the study with those 226 children IS representative. I did not say anything about the actual representativeness of the studies involved, but absolutely NOTHING.

    Yes, you do indeed come up with new arguments, but hopefully you know that it makes no sense to assume, for example, that a million children will make use of home schooling. That is two thirds of the current primary school students. Can you picture it? Besides, if it were indeed (I say WOULD BE, not that it is) wouldn't this be a sign that something is very wrong with school education? Shouldn't you look at how to improve school education, instead of acting against homeschooling?

    1. Anita,

      1,000,000 children does not make any sense at the moment, you have to see this from a visionary point of view, to start with I just took a haphazard fictional formula, I don't even know how many children there are in the Netherlands. If you had read my comments, you and Els would have understood that it was fictional. I have no problem with 2000 children who study at home, it will be completely worst, you have to imagine that all children go to study at home, not just because it is good or bad but just because it is possible. Suppose 1,000,000 children go to study at home, so you can send all teachers home because they become unemployed.

      You all forget in this discussion that this site is called visionair.nl. You have to go through all the consequences, it is not all about the child or the parents, it is all about our entire economy and political system when it comes to education. nowadays you pay 20 euros for 1 hour of guitar lessons, so someone who wants to do a music education at home must already be rich to be able to pay for all the musical instruments and to pay for the lessons. I am 100% sure that many of the parents then choose the path with the least resistance and give their child an education that ultimately does not help them socially.

      1. Barry, one of the conditions for having a good discussion is that the arguments are valid and correct. Many of your arguments are clearly not because of your exaggerations.

        And this brings me to the end of this discussion from my side, because one of the other conditions of a good discussion is that you don't argue just to win.

        You have your opinion and cannot be convinced of my position, I have my opinion and I cannot be convinced of your position either. Let's agree to disagree, have a nice day and see you next discussion.

        1. Anita,

          My arguments are valid and correct, I only used 1 exaggeration and that is the amount of children who could participate in this and even that does not have to be an exaggeration because you have to have a future view of what it could be like if all children did this. would do just because it is possible. Of course I understand the point, if the drawbacks come up because it can be seen from perspectives that you and many others do not even consider then suddenly it is not true or impossible or not valid. Tell me clearly, how far do you want to continue studying at home? Everyone in the Netherlands wants equal rights, do you want people who want to get a driving license to study at home? Do you want to let children who want to study machine engineering also study at home? Not everyone has a NAC4 in their front yard. My exaggeration is realism. Just as realistic as the American studies cited here in the Netherlands. After 9/11 a lot of Islamic primary schools in the Netherlands were closed because they propagated anti-Western, why is the Islamic Amsterdam College closed? Not that the IAC has anything to do with 9/11 as far as I know, but I am very curious about this.

      2. I don't think it's true that most parents will go for the easy (and cheap). What you forget here is that they are still the parents of a child. In general, they want the best for their child and want them to be able to live out their dreams and to do just about everything for this.
        I also think that you only have to extend homeschooling as far as you want ... If you do not have NAC4 (no idea what that is, by the way) in your front yard, it is not possible for you to do that at home anyway and you will therefore have to look for other possibilities. So it is with everything ...
        If you just damned everything because it 'could' go wrong, nothing would ever happen.
        And a word about the studies from the Netherlands… These can only really take place if legitimate home education is allowed in the Netherlands, otherwise you will get a distorted picture anyway.

        1. Natania,

          Exactly, you have understood my message, and because we don't all have a factory in our front yard, parents have to look for alternatives with the result that many children are just as unhappy about this because they cannot learn what they want. to learn. As a result, they will later choose a direction for things they have not learned for, which revolves around the child, the parents, our economy and what it could have long-term consequences. If parents do not have the money to give the children better study options that they can carry out at home, they will certainly choose what their scholarship can handle. And whether that is really the best study method or field of study is still the question.

        1. Always Freedom,

          hahaha… lolll..ja idd, well, my message got through anyway :)

  24. It is mainly a matter of unknown makes unloved.
    Our son is HB and is studying at home, he also goes to so-called enrichment groups. He partly follows distance learning and is supervised by teachers. They could not guide him properly at various schools. Every home learning / homeschooler story is different. Be open-minded! Children have the right to learn, but that is not necessarily necessary at a school. I notice that it is nice to learn from your own talent and creativity. Self-motivation is back, since he learns at home, is also more sociable, and has a more positive self-image. It is now like this! And I also think that every person can decide about his / her life, homeschooling is not that bad, sometimes you just have to experience it yourself, or see it around you, or take the time to immerse yourself in it. Now it is still a short cut. Deviating from the standard is not allowed in the Netherlands, preferably all within the measure. Well I have respect and admiration for people who dare to walk out of line! Homeschooling belongs in the Netherlands, the schools are not empty, most parents have no time for that anyway !? But let it be a choice forever! Have confidence, will be fine with or without language test ...

  25. Julie,

    I think there is some system bug in this site, because I can't respond to some posts - the comments keep disappearing.

    Therefore, below a reaction to your text of April 2, 2011 10:02. I hope it works now.

    ———————–

    If you are citing a report that is clearly about a different topic (forced home sitting) than what the discussion and the above article are about (homeschooling), why should we read it?

    I have already tried to respond a few times to your response of March 30, 8.18, but something always goes wrong with passing on the response. (this site does not work properly I noticed)
    I'll make an attempt here.

    You write about all kinds of pedagogical / didactic theory. I can imagine that this could be important if you have to work with classes of 25 students (each with different aptitudes and interests) who you have limited knowledge of and who have a fixed curriculum to complete.
    In homeschooling it works very differently. There you have to deal with your own children (whom you know through and through) and through one-on-one contact you will receive continuous feedback on what you are doing. That way it is not at all difficult to tune in to the learning needs of the child.
    In a school situation you can never * really * tune in to your own learning needs. So there you need all kinds of didactic skills / tricks to get the children to do that and learn what you have to let them do and learn.
    My son just wants to learn something and then I help him with that. Together we look for learning materials, eg fun reading books and films to learn languages and then we get to work. We can do exactly the things that are appropriate at that moment, my son can indicate when it has been enough again and we can just follow that, because there are not 24 other children who have completely different needs.
    What I write here is more about a few years ago. My son is now 18 and now largely arranges his learning himself (I will of course remain involved, but more in the background). Through the experiences as described above, he has learned well how to take up his own learning process. So if you still have concerns about 'learning to learn', I can reassure you about that too.

  26. Numbers do say something about the representativeness of a study. The reliability of a study increases with the square root of the number of participants (or test elements in general). So twice as many people, samples, test plots means 1.414 (= square root 2) times as significant.
    This is also reflected in meta-analyzes (in which a large number of smaller studies are combined).
    But indeed, if a study is wrongly designed and contains a major systematic error, the number of participants does not matter.

  27. Just a website technical note:

    A large number of the comments I wrote did not end up on the site. On a second attempt I got the error message that I had already sent that response before, but I still did not see the text on the site.
    That is why I was not able to say everything I had to say, especially to a number of messages from Julie, my reactions did not get through.

    I hope this message gets through.
    In any case, I now have other things to do. I will check the discussion later and maybe try to post the responses after all.

    1. Els, it has an automatic spam filter that starts coughing on more than two links. Furthermore, we recently had a very annoying little man walking around here who always used signs like one and a. So I put it in the spam filter. We will go through the list.

  28. Oh yes, then it is probably the accented letters. I have used it now and then yes ...
    If the comments are still there, maybe not all of them, because there are quite a few double things in between. Because messages did not get through, I often wrote about the same again later on.

  29. Hi,

    What I don't understand is why it's not possible to have both. Personally, I think that both school and TO have a place in society and that they can coexist perfectly.
    As said before, TO is not for everyone and most parents will not choose it, just as not every parent chooses Waldorf school or Jenaplan. There are so many different forms of education, NO ONE can tell another which one works for him / her. It is up to the parent of the child (who knows him / her best and also experiences him / her at home, so that the parent has a much better overview of what his / her child is like) to determine which form of education suits them. Homeschooling is also part of this.

    Furthermore, I think that the natural urge of children to learn is greatly underestimated. Children want to learn, they want to fill a place in society, they are social beings. It does not matter that this learning does not take place according to a certain method. How I know that 1 + 1 is 2 doesn't matter either. What is especially important is that children enjoy learning and find out that learning is fun. I'm afraid this is something you won't get in a school desk. As long as children enjoy learning, you should stop them rather than encourage them. And if you give them the space to find their own interests, you will notice that they are interested in everything, maybe at a different time than you thought, but WELL?

    I myself have been lucky enough to be able to enjoy many different forms of education and so I know for myself what the difference is.
    I had homeschooling in Canada until I was 6 (It was unschooling so that it was taught in another country is irrelevant) After moving to the Netherlands my parents decided to send us to school so that we would learn Dutch faster and they both could work. I could already read, but children don't get that until around that age, so I was able to stare ahead of me all those months that my classmates learned to read. Of course I was also really bored during English. But the moment I gave up was when I asked my teacher if I could also take home a homework booklet for math, it seemed so nice to be able to do things for school at home as well. his answer? 'no, because you can already do this…': O SO ???
    I was one of those, labeled 'regular students' by Barry, who got fine grades but got so bored all my school career that I felt like I was wasting my time there ... I don't think this is the point from school. It seems to me that school is there to get the best out of a child, not to fill time ...

    Sorry it turned out to be such a long response.

    1. Natania,

      I enjoyed reading your comment :)

      Unfortunately that I printed a stamp on you, that was not my intention, but yes, everyone but literally everyone has one or another stamp, unfortunately we cannot change that.
      But yes, I just had to make a distinction between gifted, problem child and uhm… ordinary student.

      Of course it is possible to have both but as I see it not for 1,000,000 children. And yes, Barry is exaggerating again, you have to see it this way, if everyone gets unconditional permission to let their child switch whenever it suits them, the school system in the Netherlands is unbelievably undermined and it just becomes a gigantic mess. Let me say it again, we are not here on a political forum, we have to look at this in every possible way, what is happening ... let me take another number for those who can understand that better, as soon as 50,000 children in go to study at home in the Netherlands and 10% would switch from them whenever they want. Wouldn't it be an incredible mess in the school system?

    2. thank you Natania, for your clear and straightforward response. I think you put it very well.

      We have recently started providing home education, after a lot of deliberation. The negative reactions in our environment have gradually turned around, due to our positive experiences so far. But our way of talking to other parents also helped: we don't see it in black and white. As if school is one (1) big mistake and homeschooling paradise, or vice versa.

      In our conversations it actually comes up every time how much we love our children: the parent who gives the children a school education and the parent who provides home schooling. We all run into tricky points and all have our 'hero stories'. We all try to find a good balance with the choice we have made. Parents with the children attending school may be dealing with boredom due to higher ability or other reasons, and then engage with the teacher to find more of a challenge. Homeschooling parents also seek answers to their own challenges. I don't think home educators can be blunted. In fact, that will almost be the hallmark of a homeschooling parent: there is no average. But everyone has challenges, questions, quests.

      At the moment it is in any case a privilege to be able to guide our children so intensively: one a nature child, who at the age of 5 knows all the names of plants, animals and own body parts (and organs), but on the other hand still finds numbers difficult. The other a 'button man' who at the age of 3 already gets more done with technical gadgets than many other adults ;-) (we don't really get any height from our 1-year-old, mmm :-))

  30. Barry, sorry to respond only now, but been away for a day. Lovely weather.
    But now to the point. Indeed there are good schools and bad schools. There are good teachers and bad teachers. There will be good To-ers and bad To-ers. There will be kids who love school and kids who love To. And so it will be with everything in this life, there is much more gray than black and white. Leave people free to choose what they think is best for their children, for themselves and their outlook on life. That seems to me to be the right of every person in our democratic Netherlands. Regards, Astrid.

  31. Natania, that's exactly what it is, being bored at school is sooooooooo annoying for children. Sorry you were one of them. Boredom is just one of the reasons for choosing To. Therefore for some children To is much better. Which children they are? In my opinion, that choice should lie with the parents. It seems to me that the government should make it possible for parents to really have a choice. That seems fair in our democratic country.

  32. Especially for Barry, who seems to love numbers. ;-)

    The Netherlands currently has 16.5 million inhabitants. About 24% of these (3.9 million) are younger than twenty years (figures from Statistics Netherlands). Let's say that 75% is between 5 and 18 years old (a wild guess from me), that is just under three million children / young people of school age.

    Then suppose that 5% is homeschooled by them. That is an incredibly high percentage by Dutch standards, but in countries where TO is accepted as a fully-fledged form of education in addition to school education, the 5% is (sometimes) achieved. Then we would have 148,000 home-taught children in the Netherlands.

    For the time being I do not see that happening (we are now at a sloppy two or three hundred), but go ahead, for the sake of the discussion ...

    So let's go along with the idea that such a 10% of these children would continuously switch randomly between TO and school. We are talking about less than fifteen thousand children. That may seem like a lot, but in relation to the number of children / young people that “normally” go to school, that number is not too bad. After all, 10% of 5% is only 0.5%. If you do that calculation, you will see that it would ultimately be only one (1) child in 200.

    Then what are we all talking about?

    1. Leah,

      Especially for you, you are the only one of all commentators who understood what I was doing. You are clearly one of the people who dare to step out of the fixed thinking pattern that they have taught themselves because they are fighting for their cause.

      My compliments to everyone who has stayed neatly in this discussion and especially to you and your children because you dare to explore your horizons with a broader vision than just your own points of view.

      :)

      1. Thank you, Barry. :-)

        Yes, as a family we just really enjoy speculating about anything and everything, and we do so regularly. That sharpens our brains, which would otherwise become lazy.

        I saw what you were doing, and I was sorry that no one wanted or dared to go along with it, so then I did it.

        Nice site by the way, visionair.nl. I have already spent some very enjoyable hours here. It is quite possible that you will bump into me here more often.

  33. And now about homeschooling and giftedness.

    Someone (Barry?) Said that you should be gifted yourself to be able to teach your gifted child.

    I want to say two things to that:

    1) Then all teachers should also be gifted. The PABO is an HBO study and you certainly do not have to be gifted to be able to complete that training successfully. In fact, you don't even have to be gifted to successfully complete a university degree - although giftedness can help. (Note: Giftedness CAN help, but unfortunately, giftedness can sometimes get in the way of academic success.)

    2) Many parents of gifted children are also gifted themselves. (And the measured IQs of siblings do not usually differ by more than about 10 points.)

    To make it personal: I homeschool two daughters myself. One of them has a measured (average) IQ of 147. We kept her younger sister (through damage and shame, but that's a completely different discussion) away from all authorities as much as possible, and her intelligence has never been tested , but based on her older sister's score (and our own experiences with our daughters), we can assume that she too is gifted.

    The eldest has now almost finished her education: she will receive her diploma in May and in September she will start a higher vocational education. The training of her dreams! With the youngest we still have a number of years ahead of us.

    Have we done everything ourselves? Well, not really. Our children took music lessons. With moderate success, by the way, because they did not like the school approach. Since they no longer have music lessons, they play with more fun and progress much faster too. Still, I am happy that they learned the basics in music lessons.

    The oldest has been taking drawing lessons and theater for years. The youngest does judo. Simply at a gym affiliated with the JBN.

    And then I have not yet taken with me what they all learn from grandfathers, grandmothers and other family members, friends and acquaintances.

    And oh yes, I would almost forget, but my husband and I are also gifted ...

  34. Ladies and gentlemen,

    I have enjoyed this discussion, at times I have been a bit fierce, and very slowly but surely I have worked towards certain points that have become clear in the meantime. I can imagine that some of you will think: What an incredible “#$% that Barry is :)

    For those who have seen me on this site before, I am not the worst. In the last comments I finally saw people who do not look at everything from their personal experience, but who also dare to speculate. As I said before, not everything is pure good or pure bad, I am aware of this. It is easy to view everything only from your own perspectives, when you are on this site you must also be able to think big, such as, for example, what happens to the Netherlands if every parent in the Netherlands gets his or her unconditional permission to use it child to study at home. I assume that you understand that I can keep arguing almost endlessly, (especially because it is no longer about 1 individual but about the whole of the Netherlands) both the positive sides and the negative sides.

    I wish you all the best, each and every one of you will be able to teach your child, who am I to judge that? I don't know you personally. Again, I just brushed off some BS arguments and tried to approach the situation in a more visionary way, unfortunately I had to kick some people on their toes for that, that was the only way to make them forget that it wasn't about them and their children was all about the bigger picture. People who cannot think beyond their noses are destroying our country, there are a lot of gifted people in politics who can only look at improvements that ultimately only affect their own families.

    Again, best everyone, you will bump into me more often on visionary also for subjects that are less loaded :)

  35. The discussion was full of subjective value judgments: "you pretend ...", "irrelevant comments", "little sense of reality", "as the host is ...", "nonsense ... you don't want to investigate ... you don't know what it means ... think yourself is the most important ... lecture others ... no understanding of ... don't know anything about home teacher situation ... have prejudices .. ”,“ arguments invalid and incorrect ”..” what to let go of ”..,“ which assumptions are correct and not ”..” not sensible… childish remark .. note of sarcasm ”,
    parrots and tell someone else what to do: go deeply into it .. and “why are you reacting so bluntly” ..
    Giving subjective value judgments is a form of provocation. According to one theory, the person who provokes is someone who shows who he or she is and how he or she sees the other. Provocation is a proprietary method of self-affirmation. Conversely, it is also clear what one has in the other when one is provoked. In provocation, a subjective image is forced on the person who is provoked and he or she is thus seen and addressed and treated in accordance with the image of the provocative person. A client, for example, who calls a nurse a sissy or a horny bear, will probably continue to address him with sexual comments. The subjective image has become the frame of reference. THIS IS JUST THE POWERLESS OR THE EVIL ASPECT IN SUCH INTERACTION. Escape from the image that someone does not want to conform to is almost impossible. The provocative has put the other in a position of compulsion that cannot be ignored. Moreover, provocation can also make someone a joker in the eyes of third parties. How deliberate it is is the question, it depends on the degree of accountability, but also on the degree of survival strategy. Then it has become a lifestyle, a way of being. THOSE WHO PROVOCATE WANTS A CONFLICT. In order to come to a conflict, the other must be given the identity of an opponent, an enemy, a stupid or something similar. Provocation is the means of getting the other into that position. The irritation and anger on the part of the person provoked that then arise is the confirmation of the effectiveness of the remedy. An escalation of the conflict cannot be ruled out. The blame for any escalation lies or will be placed with the other. Should the provocative fail in his or her provocation, a tragic dilemma arises: either stop and stand for a joker or continue with heavier means. Chances are that someone can strike again or that a situation will turn into violence. Someone with a provocative lifestyle has no other possibilities to stand up for himself and to discuss displeasure and unwellness, to bend it and to channel it IN A POSITIVE WAY. Provoking has once proven to be a suitable survival strategy for that person. This in order to survive as impotent in difficult situations.
    The solution is that the provocative works on better social resources, such as learning social skills. Then the person can experience that he / she can also feel powerful in another - not harmful or losing - way, although it will not be easy to change or be influenced just like that, because that brings in their own certainties and their own self-image. Danger.
    I am not able to provoke because I am attuned to the category of people with a provocative lifestyle. What I did is called mirroring, but I didn't attack people on the person. Moreover, in a discussion with respect for each other you achieve more, because the purpose of a discussion is to discuss the consequences, the arguments, the solutions, the answers and the pros and cons in an objective factual way, and not in an objective way. subjective value (empty) way.

  36. Peter van Zuidam,

    ON your first niggle: Should… OK CAN then.
    I seriously wonder what you want to achieve with this. Of all the Muslims I have ever met, the young people were almost always the ones who spoke better Dutch than the parents themselves. It is generally known that in the Islamic world the bond between parents and young people is closer than in the Dutch. It is very logical that Islamists want to educate their young people at home through self-selection. Do you want to give those same Islamists the opportunity to educate their young people? I have serious doubts about this, there will be no other way on the basis of equal rights. Who will pay for the costs of the extra AIVD that will have to work with the school inspectorate, who will pay for the extra interpreters needed for this. I am not afraid that it will cost me money personally, you do not want there to be 1 or 2 bastards in between who would secretly set up a second hofstadt group? The link you have on your website with that letter in which you lobby for this is not doing your cause any good. Any normal person with a bit of intelligence can already see the storm, or are you not aware that we have been in the highest state of alert for years, partly because of the nonsense of the hofstadt group?

    Then comes point 2, if there are people here on the site who want to convince people by means of self-glorification and glorification of their children that home study is very good, then it does not do you any good, it would also look good for these people if they see any bottlenecks so that parents who want to start this do not have to ask around in their circle of friends about possible problems. I hope you also get something constructive out of this, I also have a few constructive ideas for you that you can get started with. (if you choose)

    point 3, quote,
    Do you have anything against foreign education research, Barry? Why should foreign research not have a predictive effect on Dutch children?

    What good is foreign research if it has at most a predictive effect? If you know so well that there are 300 children in the Netherlands, it should be a breeze for you to hire an independent research agency that draws up a questionnaire, you can easily send that questionnaire to those 300 parents with the urgent request for it to be completed for the benefit of your cause. then you immediately have a scoop and an honest Dutch research. And if you also want to benefit from that research, you just have to show that entire questionnaire on your website with all the percentages, not only the positive things but also the negative things that can happen in home schooling. We do not live in gnomes land where everything is always cake and egg, enough will also go wrong, you must also publish that for the benefit of your cause. Constructive enough?

    Then comes the next point, South Africa, Canada, England and Norway… these are all four areas where the schools are generally so far away from the smaller villages that it makes sense for these studies to be underlined. You can hardly call that a fair opinion formation.

    Next point,
    You wrote further: "point 1 in that article is misplaced, precisely because it is already mentioned that 49% of the respondents were still studying, so it was completely unnecessary to mention this point in the final conclusion."
    Students no longer do homeschooling. Their homeschooling allowed them to be accepted into a university. In the US, student admission is not automatic on the basis of a (VWO) diploma, as here.

    yes idd, for this reason alone the use of american research is total nonsense, their education system is completely different there, because you can also get a good education there if you are a tall guy of 220 cm and a ball in a net can throw.

    So again I advise you to start your own investigation and my next advice is not to involve people who are only focused on their own families. So independent. If you want to work politically, you also need to be able to think beyond your nose, what is the point of the things you want to achieve? If all parents are allowed to teach their children at home, it automatically means that the regulations must be adjusted so that those same parents are limited in their freedoms as much as they were before when they were obliged to send their children to school. As an association, have you drawn up a list of pros and cons in that plan? Have you drawn up a list of any legislative proposals that will help make your plan possible and help ensure that our economic system is not completely undermined? It is no longer fair if the people who came here on the site and claim that they are gifted also help to keep the Netherlands on the rail instead of just arriving with self-aggrandizement. As far as I know I'm not gifted so it should be a breeze for you guys to make these things happen… again, constructive enough?

    1. Well, there are gifted people. In general, gifted people think differently: faster, more complex, more deeply, than normally gifted people.
      Placing a gifted child among normally gifted children is therefore often a source of problems. Ask Mensa members who 'come out' at a later age.
      Homeschooling is better then, although Mensa is currently in contact with the Ministry of Education about gifted class education.
      By the way, who knows, you might be gifted yourself. A simple way to find out (at least to get an impression) is the Mensa home test: http://www.mensa.nl/lid-worden/doe-de-thuistest
      If you can't beat them, join them;)

      1. Germen,

        The gifted people who took part in this discussion, except for a few, have mainly glorified their own families and themselves and that is by no means informative, it is quite obvious that people who in this bureaucratic country manage to get their children at home. to earn respect and to be special people anyway. So these are not good examples in advance. There was only 1 person who handled the situation realistically and that was AAGM, this person saw that it is a process of trial and error for both the children and the parents. I have not seen 1 person give advice to home teachers who may have encountered some pitfalls, and I have certainly not seen anyone who dared to literally paint a picture of what could happen to our country if their wishes to give everyone that choice comes true.

        Like I said: We don't live in the land of gnomes and fairies and perfection is almost non-existent, the only thing that is completely perfect on our globe is the word perfect. All other matters are things that you can weigh and consider.

    2. Barry, just very briefly:
      How many of the Hofstad group are home-taught and how many have attended school?
      And finally a reaction about your big picture: everything big starts small, you have to start somewhere and it grows out or it doesn't. “Anyone who does not honor the small cannot resist the great,” the saying goes for good reason.

      1. M.

        you are certainly right, but yes, people must also understand that even without my doom scenario there is more to it, if you want to change our entire education system then you should not come up with just beautiful stories, homeschooling does not have to be bad for us but then at least tell what the future expectations are, future expectations are not predetermined, anyway, it should actually be possible for the people who are politically active with this to show a plan and think beyond what we have seen so far. I will cite just one more example that has not yet been discussed, it is well known that most alcoholics suffer from overestimation. If this were to become possible, home education, how do you plan to determine who in the Netherlands is mentally healthy enough to teach his or her children? Are you going to prepare for this by training a battalion of extra officials 5 years in advance who wants to test everyone on the spiritual level (intelligence and stability). In the first 2 years, all civil servants that are directly or indirectly involved with training will be inundated by people who are happy to keep their children at home for all kinds of reasons such as economic reasons, selfish reasons, the right reasons (that you want to teach your child well with all your heart and soul). The first 2 years everything is just completely turned upside down, so how do you want to set this up, I am not yet saying that setting it up is impossible or very difficult but ...

        I tried to send this discussion with a lot of comments to a certain goal, I gave them the opportunity to kick me hard so that we could quickly leave the trifles behind and switch to the core of the whole matter. and that is the future. We are here on visionair.nl, not on a social chat forum, there have only been 2 people who dared to think a little further and that was Leah and I, and the people who want to get this done do not give 1 future-oriented picture. the intention is to see the article that Germen has written from a visionary point of view. That is why I also say: You will not get there by glorifying your own situation, the people who come to this site are generally a bit smarter, most will quickly dismiss this as just another meaningless story. And if there are people who only want to talk about themselves and their family, at least tell them what you hope to achieve for your children, you will surely have a plan that matches the successes you have already achieved with your children? Tell us something visionary ...

        1. @Barry,
          Look, it would have been handy that you had at least gone through some studies and read some about homeschooling, because then you would have known that many of your objections are unfounded. It has already been said here (I believe, and otherwise now for the first time) that it is not the easiest way for parents (shifting to school is much easier), but for many children it is better.
          And alcoholics really have something else on their mind than their kids want to teach. In addition, art 247 of BWB1 imposes requirements on parents, including to parents, so your objection is immediately dismissed. By the way, now that we are dealing with objections. All Dutch cases in recent years where the so-called shit was on the ball, for example children, it concerned children who went to school when they were that age and were already known to youth care.
          Then the future picture: let's first go to history. Most of the great historical NL natural scientists are largely home-taught, and what a future, what a legacy they have left for us now (which they themselves had not foreseen when they were 12, for example, and their parents often not either). Then the future picture for our family: first, neither my other half nor myself ended up in the profession for which we learned / studied (did you?). Our children are still amply orientating themselves (which is not possible at school because you have to choose profiles early!) Although the eldest already has a place in a further education, but can (he would like to) cancel it again.
          You can be so visionary, you cannot plan the future from day to day and often things go differently than you had planned, hoped or thought. What is important to us is that our children grow up to be balanced adults who 1) dare to be themselves (there are plenty of followers in the world)
          and 2) who can make a healthy contribution to society and given the situation in many schools and the peer presure and related matters, we saw that vision of the future falling apart and in that sense we took matters into our own hands to ensure in any case that they learn to be themselves and learn to take others in society into account and to take both of these things with them in a job / position in which they can further flourish.
          Finally, the fact that many here do not write down the future expectations for their children does not mean that they have not thought about it. Especially parents who teach their children at home have thought about it, deliberately and weighed it down, precisely because you take matters into your own hands and do not easily take over, also because we (all home teachers) are still swimming against the tide. and many “outsiders” do not (want to) understand it (another argument against your objection that people might do it for selfish reasons, because it is much easier to send your child to school).
          So much for my contribution here

        2. M,

          Look, if we had gotten your comments at the beginning of the discussion, I wouldn't have had to push like that with all kinds of examples to get people thinking.

          There was 1 person who said that it was / is not the easiest way for parents, and that was AAMG, everyone else praised themselves or their children, we simply do not live in an ideal world, children can have fun, parents also. Of course, alcoholics have something else on their mind than teaching their children. I just cited a realistic example, if it should be possible for everyone to study at home then 2 things will happen, art 247 of BWB1 will have to be canceled and new articles have to be made or art 247 of BWB1 will be number of points need to be adjusted. When it comes to schooling, I have a slew of degrees and certificates and it's all worth as much as pie paper. it is also a fact that most Dutch people undergo a radical job change about 3 times in their life.

          Another one of the more important things that has not been discussed is the fact that economists know for years in advance how many houses will be built in the Netherlands, they know how many engineers there are in the Netherlands and so they can calculate in advance how many engineers are still needed, if there are too few, they set up a project where there are just about 200 more trained, so they also know in advance how many masons are needed for (I will call some fictional) 100,000 houses and whether there will be 2000 masons in 3 years' time needed. This applies to every profession, you cannot build an economy from day to day, so when children go to school who take professional tests, the results are registered and all those results end up at research agencies. Economists use this research data to calculate what we still need from professionals in the Netherlands and then the circle is complete again, they can start up new processes for students. All these research methods that drive our economy fall away when everyone goes to study at home, in other words, there is no way anymore to determine who wants to study what and how economists can respond to this. Do you have an idea here about how to deal with this and which body should take this on?

          The argument you use that when shit is on the ball it happens to kids who go to school that's a pretty weird argument, it's abundantly clear that parents who are allowed to teach their kids at home are tighter with their kids. or anyway stricter rules imposed on them by the government, you cannot afford bad examples or failures within that group of 300 children. Where is the comparison? 300 children who study at home and should set an example for future students at home or more than a million schoolgoers?

          Finally, it is very easy to just turn my arguments around and show it positively to the outside world for your purposes. You can understand that I'm not just talking about alcoholics, there are countless population groups who want to leave their children at home out of laziness so that their children can play their personal slave in the household all day long, up to and including shopping. Many extra people will therefore have to be trained who will exercise a controlling function on students who are studying at home. (for which you also need economists to calculate how much) Which authorities are going to control it, who is going to determine whether someone is mentally capable of educating their children, how many highly educated people do we need for this project, all the great economists are visionaries or need to think visionary, what is your contribution to positive change in the Netherlands? I am not saying that your input is negative, I just want to know if the Home Education Association has also thought about comprehensive plans that cover everything to come after such a bill has been approved or even has ideas about legislative changes, fully elaborated and all .

        3. Barry,
          I agree with you all this time, moreover, there is a participation council at school and possibly a pupil tracking system in which the parents can exercise influence and consult about their child. There are all kinds of projects to involve parents in the school, all that is needed is the discipline to deal with the problems at school, and to put the children to school, and for the children the discipline to go to school. to go.

        4. That's just the problem, Julie :)
          A participation council always tries to achieve the best for the large group, ie the average student. However: there is no average student. There is only a group of individuals. Exceptional individuals thus fall between two stools.

  37. Julie, Germen, It goes without saying that exceptional individuals should receive the attention they should receive or deserve in any situation, at school or at home. I have mentioned a number of points that go much further, the club of home education promoters themselves also understand very well that if they want to turn the entire education system upside down, there are consequences to which they can also give targeted answers when I ask specific questions. Until now I have not received clear answers, not 1 visionary idea about how it could go if everyone was allowed to do this and what positive or negative or other consequences it could have for the entire Dutch population.

    1. I think you get self-selection. Children who don't deviate too much from average will keep going to school because their parents don't feel like putting in all that effort. Of course you have to test every year whether the child has acquired sufficient knowledge. If not, it must still go to school, with the exception of children with a ZMOK indication.

      1. Germen,

        Fine, self-selection does not have to be wrong, but who is going to check this? Any half-wit who wants to abuse his child for selfish purposes is therefore given the opportunity to keep the child at home, who is going to distinguish between who is half or completely cooked? There are people who are very intelligent and can EASILY teach their children, at the same time those same parents can also be mentally unstable. How much civil service does it take to test and complete all of this? I have also selected myself to become rich within the next 10 years, but without the right officials around me that really will not work. How much will this plan cost, who will pay for it? the ministry of education? The taxpayer? What consequences will this have if a large number of children stay at home (outside the expectations) for teachers, for example? Will all teachers who are fired as a result get a retraining program? How do they want to anticipate for their children what will be needed later in society? For example, I can say with certainty that as long as there are cars, mechanics are always needed, who will pay for the tools and materials needed to learn how a car is put together at home? For which study programs will this idea be categorically rejected because of, for example, the practical reasons I mentioned. As I said before: I can effortlessly continue to list things that can be thought about, I am amazed that I really do not get any meaningful responses. I know that the homeschooling association has had positive results with self-selection but that was aimed, if I understood correctly, only 1 population group.

        1. And in order to develop your own identity you have to be able to react against someone else, in a different way than against the parents, which also happens in the toddler and adolescent phase and is also necessary for healthy development. And putting that off against the parents becomes more difficult and confusing when the parent (s) also take on the role of teacher. And the child is always in the same environment with always the same people and the breathing out of a busy day takes place in the same m². Homeschooling promotes egocentrism in children, and lack of trust in society and in the school in particular, running away from (bullying) problems, withdrawal from the legal system (taking matters into your own hands), and weakening adaptability.

        2. It is precisely this constant compulsion to control (and to want to record everything and to know everything in advance) that destroys children in schools. The constant checking was what makes the school a straitjacket (e) for the children, the constant interference because you act / are slightly different than the average and everything is recorded and everything has to be fine-tuned until you fit in “the box”. And with it the constant discrimination of everything that is different (and don't say that it doesn't, open your eyes well). And yes, I understand very well what you want to say (why do we have to understand everything and do you not want to understand that precisely those foreign investigations have already proven that control is superfluous and costs more money than it yields, etc.)
          I no longer intended to respond and will not do so afterwards, because with your reactions you clearly indicate that you are sailing your own course and do not care about what has already been researched (at home and abroad). You should know for yourself, but then don't play the same tune every time (nothing to visionaries). You have already indicated that many people change their workplace / profession sometimes more than once. How, then, should economists get to the bottom of this? So do you worry about those few % (and that is very broadly taken) home teachers in the future (should it ever become a legal alternative) but do not worry, they will be fine and there is no need for an extra official to be recruited / trained etc. . Julie can stay nice in front of the class and she doesn't have to worry about that anymore. The world is big, who says our children stay in this country? We pay for the training ourselves, so we don't owe the taxpayer anything. They are still young and have a future ahead of them, and fortunately it is not fixed. And because our children do not have to choose profiles but continue to take all subjects until they are 18, they have many more opportunities and possibilities than school-taught children. And the freedom to investigate and see where they do best (without the compulsive control that now takes place in schools and in many areas of society, which are slowly turning NL into an Eastern bloc country).

          I wish you a pleasant continuation

        3. M,

          Why you should know everything and I shouldn't? That is very simple, you want to promote home education and adjust the Dutch constitutions to make it possible, not me. If you are not even able to provide me with answers then you are also not able to bring this up to the High Court or to provide well-founded answers for investigating judges who have to take this into preliminary investigation.

          I didn't say anything about discrimination, as far as I know everyone is discriminating each other in one way or another. My child is 4 and the smallest in the school, he is already being bullied .. well so ?? I'll teach him to bite off, that's a bit of a lame excuse to keep your child at home for that. I keep playing the same tune? yes logical if I mention certain things several times, you also diligently keep telling the same stories about how things are going in your home situation, but it is indeed visionary what I have mentioned all. It is also very logical that you feel powerless to my questions because you just don't have an answer. Then it is logical that you would like to get personal. Get personal, it says more about you and some others without any vision of the future than it does about me.

        4. Interfering is not bothering, but caring about the child. The child can experience that not only the parents do this, but also teachers and boyfriends or girlfriends. Being accepted and accepting others is a learning process on both sides, you learn to make friendships, assertiveness, self-confidence, courage, and how to deal with someone else's individuality, so the children get the chance to get to know each other and appreciate each other. The child does not always want to be an exception, but rather wants to belong. School is not the only thing that shapes, but it does offer a lot of rich experience for the child to later on become a strong personality who is able to withstand society.

    1. Well, that fits nicely up your street! And soon Trouw will say that home students / teachers are donkeys, which is worse than owl chicks.
      Trouw attracts a new group of readers, call it supporters, which in the end should generate money again. Over the back of an already existing group, which no longer yields anything, and Erasmus and Aristotle are already deceased!
      If you want to think independently, it is better to choose an independent and neutral newspaper like NRC. and AD.

      1. Julie,

        That article was written by a journalist named Tobias Reijngoud.

        Tobias publishes on education, economics, development aid and sustainability. He teaches scientific writing at the Hogeschool Utrecht. He studied Journalism for Academics at the School of Journalism in Utrecht. He previously graduated as a geographer at Utrecht University

        Someone who has obtained so many diplomas to call himself a sluggish cow is not really to be taken seriously as far as I'm concerned.

  38. Interesting thinking.
    As for the comment that a parent must be able to do all subjects, yes and no.
    Although I feel able to teach all subjects VWO, I do not have to do this.
    My child is being homeschooled, exclusively since this year.

    We have no problem with the teachers for the subjects.
    One grandfather is a sports and geography teacher, the other has a teaching qualification for mathematics.
    One grandmother is a biology and gym teacher, the other is a midwife.
    Father is responsible for physics because of his studies in electrical engineering, mother is a doctor and medical translator English.
    Aunt is a primary school teacher and could take care of history. 
    Another aunt is a German and mathematics teacher, another aunt is a remedial teacher, an aunt has studied chemistry.

    If you have a little help from the family it is best to do it.
    I've always believed that our children would have done better if I had been able to teach them from a young age by a governess.
    I also thought school was a waste of time. I never did anything and could have effectively finished in a third of the time. On the other hand, for some people you school of it. Jedem das Seine.

  39. It is very important to be allowed or able to use your network. Not everyone has that option. Search and find, remain opportunistic, not for yourself but for the child who does not fit in regular education for whatever reasons.
    It is also unfortunate if talent is lost because current education cannot evaluate quickly enough, because the integration is not proceeding proportionally.
    Then it is ultimately not otherwise possible to provide or receive home education because schools are reluctant to act, and to give back the responsibility of whether the parents have time or not.
    In NL, appropriate education is quite well organized, except for those who are stuck in the water, the very gifted with behavioral problems, the children who cannot settle within the masses and can survive on average at school. I do understand the pressure from all sides. Expertise in schools you need time, knowledge and budget for that. As long as there are only cutbacks and children are seen as a mass product, things will not get any better in Dutch education.
    Teaching yourself is not even a voluntary choice, for some it is, if you have to ... then you do that too ..... like in the past, when you could not send your child to school because there was no money for it, and now is It is true that it is precisely the higher educated who have to teach their child (ren) at home! Is this evolution? Or devolution?
     

  40. In some cases, homeschooling can be even better than school education. We have done a lot with our son at home, because the school refused to provide extra support. Many overworked teachers, riots in the classroom and a very unhappy child. Reason for us to purchase special material in group 7 to practice the Entrance Test. Later done the same with the Cito test. Now our son has graduated from HAVO, while at primary school he scored one unsatisfactory after another. 
    Why delay homeschooling? Many adults also study at home or on the computer. Children with disciplined parents can certainly learn something from that too.

  41. Thank you Douwe for paying attention to it again, I see that there have been many reactions, I can certainly learn something from it, I immediately added it to my favorites. Mvg Jasper.

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